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  • FIRST POST
    • GenialGaz
    • By GenialGaz 14th Jul 17, 10:52 AM
    • 4Posts
    • 3Thanks
    GenialGaz
    Questions on template appeal for BPA members from sticky Newbie thread
    • #1
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:52 AM
    Questions on template appeal for BPA members from sticky Newbie thread 14th Jul 17 at 10:52 AM
    I would like to ask a question about the template appeal for BPA that @Coupon-mad kindly provides in the sticky Newbie thread. This is a copy of it:

    Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.
    My primary question is this: does giving the name and address of the keeper at the bottom mean that the PPC will then have no need to request the registered keeper's data from the DVLA?

    If not then why not i.e. why would the PPC still have to make a request?

    If the answer is that it does mean no DVLA request then:
    • What disadvantages does this have? Does it remove the possibility of getting them for breaking the Data Protection Act if they give the address to debt collectors? Does it remove any grounds for appeal to POPLA/courts arising from non-compliance with DVLA requirements?
    • Is it OK to omit the keeper's address from the appeal to the PPC?
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    • 33,258 Posts
    • 17,194 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    Unless you are involved with a company car or hire car etc then appeal when advised in the newbies faq.


    You obviously need to give the keepers address
    Last edited by Quentin; 14-07-2017 at 10:57 AM.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 14th Jul 17, 11:08 AM
    • 7,784 Posts
    • 7,878 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:08 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:08 AM
    Overthinking stuff is a very bad trait when dealing with PPCs.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Jul 17, 11:21 AM
    • 3,494 Posts
    • 3,553 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:21 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:21 AM
    If you are responding to a windscreen PCN as the keeper then that's the whole point ... they have the name/address of someone to try and chase, thus they almost always forget to request keeper details from the DVLA.

    They MUST do that to be able to legally transfer liability for the charge from driver to keeper. If they don't then you have a cast-iron defence at both POPLA and court.

    If the PCN came through the post then they've already requested them from DVLA anyway.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    • 16,548 Posts
    • 20,704 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    in other words, they cannot just "take your word for it"

    legally , they have to prove they got the correct keepers details , which means they pay the DVLA for them , then they match it to the appeal details , so the two should be the same

    a keeper could say MICKEY M MOUSE , DISNEYLAND , PARIS !!

    clearly that is wrong , so their invoice (NTK) would be a legal demand of the keeper to pay the pcn or dob in the driver , providing they got the keeper details from the DVLA

    if they forget to get those details and issue the NTK as an invoice to the keeper, they fail under POFA2012 to hold the keeper liable , many PPC,s fail this simple task, probably due to the sheer volume of work

    some dont even bother with POFA2012, hence why they keep losing in court
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 14th Jul 17, 12:24 PM
    • 5,987 Posts
    • 5,439 Thanks
    Herzlos
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 12:24 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 12:24 PM
    Is it worth giving them a slightly different address to the DVLA version, such that it will still be delivered but is clearly derived incorrectly? Like mis-spelling the county or adding a building name?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jul 17, 2:08 PM
    • 51,534 Posts
    • 65,137 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 2:08 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 2:08 PM
    Yes, that can then be a way of knowing that they didn't get the keeper's data from the DVLA.

    My primary question is this: does giving the name and address of the keeper at the bottom mean that the PPC will then have no need to request the registered keeper's data from the DVLA?
    No.

    If not then why not i.e. why would the PPC still have to make a request?
    Because Schedule 4 says to hold a keeper liable, the operator must obtain the keeper's data via the Secretary of state (i.e. the DVLA).

    There is no other method allowed, not even if an appeal gives what might be that info, nor if they ask the landowner 'who owns that van?' nor reading a company name off the side of a van, for example.

    To comply with Schedule 4 they MUST go to the DVLA, regardless of any appeal made.

    And that's something most PPCs do not get, hence why we advise what we do.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GenialGaz
    • By GenialGaz 14th Jul 17, 7:30 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GenialGaz
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 7:30 PM
    Thanks, this is all really valuable stuff.
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 7:30 PM
    Wow, you are all really blowing me away with your wise, clever and tricky stuff. Actually beginning to enjoy this even! Zero to hero with your help I hope. Also hope it's OK to keep you posted on this thread rather than starting another?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jul 17, 7:39 PM
    • 16,548 Posts
    • 20,704 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 7:39 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 7:39 PM
    definitely keep this thread updated , no need for another unless its a separate and unrelated topic
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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