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  • FIRST POST
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 9:53 AM
    • 14Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Gladstones Letter Before Claim
    • #1
    • 14th Jul 17, 9:53 AM
    Gladstones Letter Before Claim 14th Jul 17 at 9:53 AM
    Hi All,

    I have received a 'Letter Before Claim' from Gladstones and I was hoping for some advice. I have read a lot on the forums, but I have just confused myself.

    Some history:

    A person parked on private land, and overstayed their complimentary parking by a few minutes. They received a parking charge in the post (in their name, but wrong title). The person appealed.

    The parking company responded by rejecting the appeal, but the letter and response was addressed to me (my name but wrong title). I am not the registered keeper nor the registered owner nor did the driver give them my details. So I ignored it. I still don’t know how they got my details, or why they addressed the appeal response to me.

    Following a letter from a debt recovery company (also addressed to me, which I ignored), I have now received a ‘Letter Before Claim’ from Gladstone Solicitors saying I have 14 days to pay up or respond.

    Should I respond, or should I wait till court papers arrive? And am I mistaken for not responding to them sooner given the mix up on their part?

    If it goes to court, will the fact that I never received a parking charge notice in my name make a difference?

    Your advice is appreciated.
    Last edited by Eni_Spaghetti; 14-07-2017 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Driver details removed
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jul 17, 10:19 AM
    • 17,209 Posts
    • 21,504 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:19 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:19 AM
    if it is a REAL lbc from GLADS , and not a DRP letter in disguise, then respond with a rebuttal letter (not that GLADS will read it or action it)

    prepare for a court claim MCOL in the next few weeks , regardless of what you write

    and as this is CIVIL court, its a one off deal and no previous will be taken into account , certainly not like in speeding prosecutions etc

    its a simple dispute over an unpaid invoice , nothing more

    its not a murder trial , think of it as like Judge Rinder without all the theatrics , dont give it more weight than what it is
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 10:40 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:40 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:40 AM
    Thanks Redx. Since it is going to a claims court anyway, is there any point of me responding? Or will responding help my case in court?

    Also, if it is better for me to respond, should I mention everything or should I withhold some information?

    Thanks again
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    • 34,187 Posts
    • 18,130 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    You should never give away who was driving.


    Edit your OP to remove details of the driver
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 10:49 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:49 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:49 AM
    Thanks Quentin....post updated.
    • hoohoo
    • By hoohoo 14th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    • 1,679 Posts
    • 3,118 Thanks
    hoohoo
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    I would respond to both gladstones and the parking company.

    Dear Gladstones/Parking company,

    Re charge xxx

    I am not the driver, owner or keeper of the vehicle. I am unsure how this mix up on your part occurred. However, now that I have provided you with this information under the data protection act you are obliged to update your records accordingly. It is an offense under the act if you do not do this.

    Please confirm you have done this within 14 days.


    This puts you in a good position for a DPA counterclaim if they are stupid enough to file a claim.
    Dedicated to driving up standards in parking
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 11:05 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:05 AM
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:05 AM
    Thanks hoohoo.

    Is it still possible for them to go back and fine the driver, or is it too late for them to do that?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Jul 17, 11:15 AM
    • 34,187 Posts
    • 18,130 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:15 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:15 AM
    1) It's not a "fine" but an "invoice"


    2) Creditors have 6 years to take legal action over a debt


    Never reveal who was driving!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jul 17, 11:20 AM
    • 6,763 Posts
    • 8,755 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:20 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 11:20 AM
    Thanks hoohoo.

    Is it still possible for them to go back and fine the driver, or is it too late for them to do that?
    Originally posted by Eni_Spaghetti
    Send the letter hoohoo suggests

    There is no fine involved, it's an invoice, don't get confused.

    If they don't know who the driver is, there is nothing they can do.

    Gladstones are a highly incompetent firm of solicitors, right now
    they lose in court because of their incompetence.

    As said, if they ignore you and issue court proceedings, who will they name on the court papers and yes, they could open themselves up for a data breach which could be £250 to £750
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 11:50 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Thanks All. The letter has been printed and will be posted first class today.

    Will keep you updated as things progress.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    • 17,209 Posts
    • 21,504 Thanks
    Redx
    Thanks Redx. Since it is going to a claims court anyway, is there any point of me responding? Or will responding help my case in court?

    Also, if it is better for me to respond, should I mention everything or should I withhold some information?

    Thanks again
    Originally posted by Eni_Spaghetti
    lets put put this way

    you dont want a cranky judge asking why you ignored the LBC and did not reply to the LBC , in other words you wont want GLADS saying they followed the pre-court protocol and you failed to do so

    you want to show a court you tried everything possible and that you denied the alleged debt IN WRITING , like sending the hoohoo letter above

    the last thing you want is to be sidetracked and hoodwinked in court due to not sending a debt denied letter with a 60p stamp on it

    and NEVER give out information that can be used by a claimant
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 12:16 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Thanks Redx...appreciate it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jul 17, 2:01 PM
    • 52,924 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Email a copy of the letter to them as well, and get a free 'cert of posting' (not recorded/signed for).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 14th Jul 17, 10:41 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Thanks Coupon-mad. Letter sent this afternoon and got the certificate of proof. Will e-mail them a copy of the letter too.
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 21st Dec 17, 12:16 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Hi all,

    After a long period of silence, I have received a County Court Claim Form, asking me to respond within 14 days. Any advice?

    Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Dec 17, 2:00 PM
    • 52,924 Posts
    • 66,467 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Only once you've read the NEWBIES thread post #2 and done the online AOS, and show us your defence draft!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 1st Jan 18, 11:55 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Draft defence
    Hi all,

    I have done the online AOS and have put together a draft defence. Please let me know what you think. I will try to post a picture of the claim particulars.

    Thanks in advance


    1. I, XXXXXXXXXXXXX, the defendant, deny that I am liable to the claimant for the entirety of the claim.

    2. The defendant has previously written to the claimant informing them that the defendant is not the registered keeper of the vehicle or was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the incident.

    3. The defendant does not know how the claimant has obtained their details, and has previously requested that the claimant update their records after informing them of the above in line with the data protection act, which the claimant has failed to do.

    4. The defendant has previously informed the claimant in writing that they were not the driver of the car on the day and place in question. The defendant can prove that they were at work, approximately 40 miles away from the car park at the time of the alleged breach of contract.

    5. The claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence.

    6. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the defendant. The claimant failed to include a copy of their written contract as per Practice Direction 16 7.3(1) and Practice Direction 7C 1.4(3A).

    7. No indication is given as to the claimants contractual authority to operate there as required by the claimants Trade Association's Code of Practice B1.1 which says; “If you operate parking management activities on land which is not owned by you, you must supply us with written authority from the land owner sufficient to establish you as the ‘Creditor’ within the meaning of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (where applicable) and in any event to establish you as a person who is able to recover parking charges. There is no prescribed form for such agreement and it need not necessarily be as part of a contract but it must include the express ability for an operator to recover parking charges on the landowner’s behalf or provide sufficient right to occupy the land in question so that charges can be recovered by the operator directly. This applies whether or not you intend to use the keeper liability provisions.”

    8. This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    9. The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.

    10. The particulars of claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached. Indeed the particulars of claim are not clear and concise as is required by CPR 16.4 1(a). The claimants are known to be serial issuers of generic claims similar to this one. HM Courts Service have identified over 1000 similar sparse claims. I believe the term for such behaviour is ‘robo-claims’ and as such is against the public interest. Practice Direction 3A which references Civil Procedure Rule 3.4 illustrates this point.

    11. The claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs’ were incurred.

    12. It is submitted that (apart from properly incurred court fees) any added legal fees/costs are simply made up numbers. The claimant has at no time provided an explanation how the ‘parking charge’ has been calculated, the conduct that gave rise to it or how the amount has escalated from £100 to £160. This appears to be an added cost with apparently no qualification and an attempt at double recovery, which the POFA Schedule 4 specifically disallows.

    12.1. The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.

    12.2. The driver did not enter into any 'agreement on the charge', no consideration flowed between the parties and no contract was established.

    13. It is submitted that the conduct of the claimant is wholly unreasonable and vexatious. As such, the defendant is keeping a note of the wasted time & costs in dealing with this matter.

    14. I request the court strike out this claim for the reasons stated above and due to Gladstones' template particulars for a private parking firm being 'incoherent', failing to comply with CPR16.4, and ''providing no facts that could give rise to any apparent claim in law.

    15. I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jan 18, 10:04 PM
    • 52,924 Posts
    • 66,467 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Can you remind us how you are connected to the car?

    So the driver appealed (and the driver is known to you) but the reply - for some unknown reason - came back to you, maybe at the same address(?) but this is nothing to do with you, and you neither drive nor 'keep' this car?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 2nd Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    • 8,145 Posts
    • 8,538 Thanks
    pappa golf
    I was going to ask that question as well!

    also the name of the parking co (might have missed it tho) , we have had a recent case (minster baywatch) of wrong VRN
    • Eni_Spaghetti
    • By Eni_Spaghetti 3rd Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Eni_Spaghetti
    Hi Coupon_Mad , Pappa Golf

    Yes that's correct. The driver appealed the ticket, but the parking company responded to me instead (for reasons that are unknown). I am insured on the car and do sometimes drive it, but I didn't drive it on that day nor am I the registered keeper/owner.

    So I ignored it until I got the letter before claim from Gladstones and sent them the response that was recommended above in post 6. I then received the county court claim form about 2 weeks ago.

    A photo of the claim particulars can be found here:
    http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh522/Eni_Spaghetti/IMAG0876_zpsyi01guva.jpg
    Last edited by Eni_Spaghetti; 03-01-2018 at 9:53 PM.
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