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  • FIRST POST
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 14th Jul 17, 6:57 AM
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    Cyclamen
    Can husband and wife both claim ESA?
    • #1
    • 14th Jul 17, 6:57 AM
    Can husband and wife both claim ESA? 14th Jul 17 at 6:57 AM
    Hello,

    My husband has sadly and reluctantly had to leave work due to his health. He has been hanging on as long as possible but sadly its happened.

    I already get contributions ESA and PIP.

    He has been making the normal NI payments.

    I have been googling and reading the various sites, I've been to a benefits checker but am still unclear so thought I'd ask here please.

    Would he be entitled to his own ESA contributions based claim or do we have to do a joint claim?

    Thank you
Page 2
    • epitome
    • By epitome 16th Jul 17, 3:25 PM
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    epitome
    Assuming £69 is net occupational pension figure

    Ok let me see if I can clarify a few benefit amounts to see where we are and where we might be.

    Your Current ESA C = £109.65
    His Carers Allowance = £62.70
    Your PIP DL = Enhanced
    His PIP DL = Standard

    His Income Support currently should be
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium couple lower rate - for him)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premium couple)
    £46.40 (disability premium couple)
    £281.50 (sub total)
    -£62.70 (carers allowance)
    -£109.65 (Your ESA C)
    -£69 (Your Pension)
    £40.15 TOTAL

    So that is where you both should be right now. Ignoring PIPs as they make no difference,
    You get £109.65
    He gets £62.70 + £40.15 = £102.85
    TOTAL both of you = £211.50

    ************************************************** *********
    Now the only thing that can change at this stage is if he closes or withdraws his Income Support claim (because you can't do an ESA3 unless he closes IS) and (he -as far as I know- can't claim ESA C unless he closes Income Support)

    If he closes IS...**and you are allowed to do ESA3** <<this bit is important, you may not be allowed to do an ESA IR claim. You will be sent an ESA3 when you tell ESA, but what they do with the ESA3 when they receive it back is what matters.

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£62.70 (carers allowance)
    -£69 (occ pen)
    £139.95 TOTAL

    You would get £139.95
    He would get £62.70
    Total both of you £201.65

    So far, Income Support is winning. Now let's see what happens when he claims ESA C.

    His potential ESA C NS = £73.10 (for 1 year) (There is no WRAG amount anymore on new claims from April 2017)

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim couple)
    £124.90 (severe disability premium couple higher rate)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£73.10 (his ESA)
    -£69 (occ pen)
    £192.00 TOTAL

    He would get ESA C £73.10 (his Carer's allowance would stay open but CA payment would stop - underlying entitlement)

    Total both of you = £192.00 + £73.10 = £265.10

    As I thought, if you did it this way it beats Income Support by a long way. But you only get this for 1 year then he would not be allowed to go back to IS due to UCFSA, instead you would stay on ESA IR and he would be ESA C nil rate and Carers allowance will start paying again (but he has to ask them to pay again and it is important he does ask them), total £201.65

    Purely on contributory benefits you get £109.55,
    He gets £73.10
    Total = £182.75 so Income Support is better than this. so you need to be careful before closing IS.
    Originally posted by epitome
    So that's the adjusted amounts taking in the pension.
    At the end of the day the potential increase in benefit over Income Support will only be for 1 year and then it will go down again to an amount less than what Income Support is going to give you now. There is the possiblity that he can renew his ESA WRAG Conts for a 2nd year, and possibly even for a 3rd year.

    1 year on Income Support
    would be 52 x 211.50 = £11,000.00 **and this would continue for year 2 , year 3, year 4 etc

    1 year on the ESA IR only
    would be 52 * 201.65 = £10,485 **this would continue as long as you remain in support group. it is £500 less than Income Support

    1 year on the maximum benefit combination ESA IR and ESA C
    would be 52 * 265.10 = £13,785 *this would usually only be for 1 year, it is £2,785 more than Income Support for that 1 year, and you would still be better off after the end of the fifth year compared to Income Support. But if he qualifies for a 2nd year of ESA WRAG Conts even better, another £2,785 better.

    *you can both have ESA Conts
    *only one of you can have an Income related benefit, but it will be for both of you.

    *You also said earlier "He will definatley qualify for ESA Conts.. How do you know? Do you know the criteria for getting it? Because if he does not qualify for it then , well it won't be the end of the world, but you will have lost out on approx £500 a year for the rest of your claiming life to find out.
    Last edited by epitome; 16-07-2017 at 3:42 PM.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 16th Jul 17, 3:38 PM
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    epitome
    epitome

    Thank you.. not an easy day today and your kindness and amount fo work you are putting in is over whelming.
    I don't get taxed..but my pension statements are in a heavy folder and today that is beyond me.

    I feel I am wasting your time as I don't think he'd get passed the assessment phase of ESA. Even though he's poorly.

    I am not certain of the code on the ESA form I did but it did ask about all the financial details rather than health stuff. My statement says I would be entitled to about £28 or income related but because contributions is more I will get that.. Again its in that folder and beyond me today.

    I am going to 'give it my best shot' at getting to CAB tmrw.. each time I do a benefits checker its coming out differently.
    Originally posted by Cyclamen
    This confirms it, you already have ESA IR included. So they can't process his Income Support claim unless you phone ESA and ask them to remove the ESA IR from your ESA claim from the date IS was claimed from.. If you decide to go with Income Support you should be VERY clear to them that they are to leave your ESA Conts as it is, DO NOT CLOSE your ESA Conts claim.

    As you say, even if he qualifies for ESA Conts intially he may not pass the medical, and yes he can appeal and still get ESA Conts on appeal, but yeah, you have to decide what he is likely to get out of ESA.

    Because when his ESA finished you will be on less money on ESA IR than you wold have been on Income Suppport (£10 per week or £500 a year).

    So you decide, Income Support or the ESA C route.

    If you decide on Income Support you will need to phone ESA and tell them you want your ESA claim rebuilt to remove the Income Related part, but that you want your ESA C to continue. You should do this before your next payment of ESA is released which is typically 4 working days before your next ESA credit date. If you do this ask them to use an "exclusion 29" on your ESA claim from now, to stop your ESA from overpaying. And ask them for a call back from ESA to confirm your claim will be adjusted to remove completely the ESA IR only.

    No worries, glad to help, I enjoy it.
    You can be sure that my figures are correct, print it and take with you to C.A.B. all you have to do now is decide.

    If it was my claim, and I didn't think he would pass the medical, I would go for the Income Support option.
    If I thought he should pass the medical for WRAG I would go for ESA IR/ESA C and renew conts for a second year of payment.
    Last edited by epitome; 16-07-2017 at 3:47 PM.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 16th Jul 17, 3:39 PM
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    Alice Holt
    EDIT : Just been through ESA criteria.. he wouldn't qualify on points. Although working would harm his physical health it would be a battle to evidence this. He's in that tricky spot too poorly to work (otherwise he would still be working) and to well for ESA according to the dwp.
    Originally posted by Cyclamen
    Might then be better to stay as you are.
    (Do check that your IS claim is receiving all the premiums listed by epitome.)
    From your initial post I rather assumed he would meet the ESA criteria.

    What you don't want to do is to have a change that puts you into the UC net.
    Those in receipt of UC who are disabled with no realistic prospect of work can be several £1,000's per year worse off than under the legacy benefits (because of the loss of disability premiums). To confirm this you might want to ask the CAB for a benefits check under UC.

    As you got in just before UC started in your area and if you remain on the legacy benefits, then you should get transitional protection when (many years hence) you are transitioned onto UC. Whereas if you have a change of circumstance which forces a move to UC, there is little (or no) such protection.
    https://www.welfare-benefits-unit.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-triggers-a-claim-for-Universal-Credit-in-a-full-service-area.pdf
    https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit-transitional-protection/What-is-Universal-Credit-transitional-protection


    I would be interested to see epitome's take on this.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 16-07-2017 at 3:51 PM. Reason: Edit: i see that epitome has already posted whilst I was typing.
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 16th Jul 17, 3:58 PM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    Thanks Again Epitome

    Alice - I thought he would easily get ESA wrag when i first posted and had a chance at support group. Then i started reading the points and can see that he wouldn't without one of the extra 'working will cause harm clauses' which it will but we dont haveany written evidence.

    Epitome.. I don't actually recieve any ESA IR money.

    I think half the problem is neither of us are well enough to get our heads round this.

    I wll print this tmrw and have a good look before I go out.

    Thank you
    • epitome
    • By epitome 16th Jul 17, 4:14 PM
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    epitome
    Might then be better to stay as you are.
    (Do check that your IS claim is receiving all the premiums listed by epitome.)
    From your initial post I rather assumed he would meet the ESA criteria.

    What you don't want to do is to have a change that puts you into the UC net.
    Those in receipt of UC who are disabled with no realistic prospect of work can be several £1,000's per year worse off than under the legacy benefits (because of the loss of disability premiums). To confirm this you might want to ask the CAB for a benefits check under UC.

    As you got in just before UC started in your area and if you remain on the legacy benefits, then you should get transitional protection when (many years hence) you are transitioned onto UC. Whereas if you have a change of circumstance which forces a move to UC, there is little (or no) such protection.
    https://www.welfare-benefits-unit.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-triggers-a-claim-for-Universal-Credit-in-a-full-service-area.pdf
    https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit-transitional-protection/What-is-Universal-Credit-transitional-protection


    I would be interested to see epitome's take on this.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    I agree what you say sounds correct, but I don't know a lot about UC, and I did not follow your links, sorry, I don't have time.

    Although, just one correction, Her current situation is ESA C / IR. if they want Income Support some urgent contact with ESA will be required.
    Last edited by epitome; 16-07-2017 at 4:21 PM.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 16th Jul 17, 4:18 PM
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    epitome
    Thanks Again Epitome

    Epitome.. I don't actually recieve any ESA IR money.
    Originally posted by Cyclamen
    Yeah, I know, but you do have a live claim for ESA IR. And if you now want to go with Income Support in his name, your ESA will have to be changed to ESA Conts only.

    Oh Doh! I see what you mean, yeah an Exclusion 29 will not be required, but your ESA claim will need to be changed to "ESA Conts only", if you want his Income Support.
    Last edited by epitome; 16-07-2017 at 4:21 PM.
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 16th Jul 17, 5:12 PM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    Thanks..

    wouldn't it be nice if all the departments were linked and could sorted this out.. if only.

    so i assume our IS will be rejected if i dont phone ESA and then he would be on UC.

    I really will take all this with me and ask someone for help.

    I still have a mountain of forms and i've frankly given in.. not ideal but i'll get out tmrw.
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 18th Jul 17, 1:09 PM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    CAB - can't advise us on figures and were certain we should claim IS as didn't seem to know other options. Kept saying we get the exact same amount under IS and UC which the benefits checkers don't show

    IS phoned today and said WTC is still 'live', WTC say its closed but we can't claim IS.

    Job centre who put in IS claim now say he cant claim until after 'run-on' despite us being absolutely honest about everything and saying we had run-on.

    there is something about contacting IS as soon as run-on finishes and we may still be eligible.

    It's all a huge muddle.. i've spent all my energy an dhealth getting to CAB and now dont know what i'm doing.

    Next step is our council have a benefits team.. i just ned to check if that is only housng benefit and council tax or 'other stuff'.

    As Epitome stated I do have an ESA claim for IR despite getting no money an dhave to do something about that.

    Time to put my head under the blanket and try again another day.

    Thank you everyone for trying
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 18th Jul 17, 1:38 PM
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    TELLIT01
    There can be a delay between WTC saying the claim is closed, and the status updating on the system used by IS and DWP. I actually had one claim where the customer had sent in the letter from HMRC saying the WTC has stopped, but it still showed live on the system used by DWP, and HMRC insisted to me on the phone that it was still live!
    A single system used by all parts of government would be wonderful, and that's really what UC was originally intended to provide. If only!
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 20th Jul 17, 1:09 PM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    And so it continues..

    Trying to follow Epitomes advice..

    letter from IS stating withdraw income based entitlement from ESA but keep contributions open. This has a deadline on it.

    Phoned ESA so 25 minutes of 'on hold music' great when sound sensitive so feel awful.. to eb told that i need to wait for a call back in next 24 hours to assess if i can/should cancel ESA income bit..

    I am quickly losing the will to live here..
    • epitome
    • By epitome 23rd Jul 17, 7:08 PM
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    epitome
    Hi,

    IS won't be able to process until ESA IR removed from your ESA claim.
    Can't be done on linking departments, etc, the new IS is his claim to benefit. IS has no authority to request your ESA to be changed. Only you can ask for your ESA to be changed, not your partner (by virtue of his claim to IS).

    Anyway, surprised that IS says you can't have IS processed until WTC closed. Surely they can process it (when ESA IR has been removed) and just nil it (£0.00) while WTC is in payment.

    IS should phone WTC to confirm WTC is being closed after run-on and to establish what the run-on date is as per Tellit01 post above.

    If ESA called you, they should have done by now, then they agreed to remove ESA IR?
    If they did not call you then call ESA again on Monday morning & ask for an "escalation".
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 24th Jul 17, 7:29 AM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    Thanks Epitome.. i hit a 'not-so-good' patch so didn't update after the call.

    ESA phoned back and spoke to my husband, I was asleep after meds. I know he is on my doctors, hospital, social services records as able to speak for me but hadn't realised I'd added him on my ESA..so that was a stroke of luck.

    He explained what we were trying to do, the letter from IS and answered some questions and ESA agreed to remove the Income related entitlement. They asked him to wait half an hour before phoning IS so she could email IS with a confirmation.

    He phoned IS and they could see IR was stopped and said they'd proceed with the claim and we didn't have to post anything back.

    They made no mention of WTC.

    I am hoping everything is now in order.. and just waiting for letters with the next step to arrive.

    Thank you so much for checking back on me.. it really means a lot that I have had so much help and support.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 30th Jul 17, 9:34 PM
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    epitome
    Please phone ESA and make sure your ESA Conts has been rebuilt as an ESA Conts only live claim still in payment.
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 31st Jul 17, 6:58 AM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    Post at the end of last week included two letters from esa, the same date so no clues as to which was correct.
    1) writing to tell you your esa has been stopped because we can no longer pay you..
    2) writing to tell you you will receve £109 ESA (not certain on amount and again its out of my reach at the moment)

    Huge panic. My husband phoned and they had failed to fill in Income related for the first letter and contributions based for the second. I do wonder about who drafts there letters! They are often confusing.

    My ESA contributions is still being paid and I checked with online banking.

    My husband received a letter from income support and he has been accepted. After the 'run-on' from working tax credits ends he will get just under £40 a week. We are both happy with this and it will help enormously.

    The job centre said he could earn £20 as a disregard before this is taken off his Income support. He plans to do some online survey sites does he have to tell them this? Or does he just keep a record of any pay outs with dates etc.

    Thank you.

    P.S sadly my ESA renewal form has arrived. Bad timing as I am struggling having been trying to help with all the changes here, a 'not-so-good patch' and paperwork. I've been putting it off for a week but after hospital today it will have to be our next task. I think it was due so I'm trying not to feel ganged up on.
    Last edited by Cyclamen; 31-07-2017 at 7:03 AM.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 31st Jul 17, 8:05 PM
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    epitome
    IS = £40 a week, what I said it should be, sounds about right. Good.

    If he starts work, or receives an income he must tell IS and CA
    Thank you..
    Originally posted by Cyclamen
    No problem, nice to see a thread complete to the end.

    Bye
    • Cyclamen
    • By Cyclamen 1st Aug 17, 9:44 AM
    • 396 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Cyclamen
    Yes you were spot on.

    We will tell them any changes.. as i said earlier I am scared of getting into debt/trouble.

    We were told a £20 disregard but think I'll write and tell them he does online surveys and earns X amount a week usually and see what they say.

    Huge thanks Epitome.. its been a bit of a rollercoaster so your help and calculations and kindness are greatly appreciated.
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