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    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 13th Jul 17, 7:34 PM
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    paypalvictim
    Ebay/Paypal seller protection??
    • #1
    • 13th Jul 17, 7:34 PM
    Ebay/Paypal seller protection?? 13th Jul 17 at 7:34 PM
    Hi, I have posted this elsewhere and it was suggested that this was the forum .
    I am a private seller on ebay and sold a VCR player in April in full working order. The buyer messaged me over 6 weeks later saying that it had only been used a few times & was no longer working. They then escalated the claim to paypal who took the money out of our account leaving a debit balance. We passed evidence to paypal that the buyer had sent saying that the VCR worked upon arrival as she was asking for money back on 'not as described' basis. The item was an old piece of electronics (I need to clarify it was advertised as working but used...obviously as who sells brand new VCR) . Paypal found in buyers favour and I had threatening call to put money into account or debt collection will be put on us. What can I do ?


    The buyer had used the item for 2 months and Paypal are basing their decision on the buyer saying it wasnt working on arrival and even though they agreed that they had had the VCR for a long time before claiming it didn't work. Where do private sellers who clear their attics as per the ebay campaign stand when a used item can be used for a period and then the buyer gets all their money back up to 6 months later. Very confusing,help appreciated please.
    Thank you.
Page 1
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 13th Jul 17, 8:22 PM
    • 10,873 Posts
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    theonlywayisup
    • #2
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:22 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:22 PM
    And breathe.

    There is a gap in the procedure.....what happened when Paypal ruled in the buyer's favour. Did they return?
    • Pun
    • By Pun 14th Jul 17, 12:28 AM
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    Pun
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 12:28 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jul 17, 12:28 AM
    Have you forwarded (to Paypal) the message from the buyer saying it had been used a few times (i.e. was working when they got it)?
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 14th Jul 17, 8:46 AM
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    bxboards
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 8:46 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Jul 17, 8:46 AM
    Paypal and Ebay do not protect sellers in cases like this. It's impossible to have a a buyer protection program AND a seller protection program at the same time, I would estimate that in 99% of times Ebay and Paypal will always decide in favour of the buyer.

    About the only real 'protection' you have is in item not received cases - where if you have tracking showing delivery you may win. or with chargebacks if you have proof of postage but for 'not as described' - forget it, they will not 'investigate' and will just tell that buyer to return it, or even just refund them without a return 7 to 10 days later.

    In this sort of case, I think pretty much all experienced users will admit Ebay and Paypal will favour the buyer, they are unlikely to read any 'evidence' you submit, and even if you do, ignore it. I would love to see some stats. on how often sellers win, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 1% of the time.

    PS: I did think about contacting the Advertising Standards Agency as on one of my buyer accounts I keep getting nagged to sell. with emailed claims about how safe it is, and how there is Seller Protection. I may do this just to be awkward.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 14th Jul 17, 9:15 AM
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    NBLondon
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 9:15 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Jul 17, 9:15 AM
    I would love to see some stats. on how often sellers win, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 1% of the time.
    Originally posted by bxboards
    I won once - about 3 years ago. A used mobile air-conditioner. It was working when put up for sale. The buyer paid cash on collection - and didn't test (which was offered) before handing over the cash. He claimed a week later that it didn't work. I made the case that it was working when he took ownership and I can't be responsible if he and his mate broke it getting it into their van or on the way home. Mind you, the fact that I had actual folding money helped as PayPal couldn't get involved.


    ETA - What Pun said... if the buyer has admitted it was working on arrival and you gave that evidence to eBay (not PayPal) then their case should have been rejected.
    Last edited by NBLondon; 14-07-2017 at 9:18 AM. Reason: Hit Post instead of Preview...
    This Be the Verse - Philip Larkin. The first line that everyone knows.
    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 14th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
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    ballisticbrian
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    • #6
    • 14th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    Mind you, the fact that I had actual folding money helped as PayPal couldn't get involved.
    Sorry but what is the relevancy of this when the whole thread is about a PayPal case?
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 14th Jul 17, 10:04 AM
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    paypalvictim
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:04 AM
    • #7
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:04 AM
    They have returned the broken VCR(which they broke I might add). The procedure doesn't allow for the buyer to not get money back it has a choice of partial refund(which buyer did not want),refund & they keep or return & refund....hobson's choice) as they had refunded buyer almost immediately.
    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 14th Jul 17, 10:07 AM
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    paypalvictim
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:07 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:07 AM
    Yes evidence of buyers message saying that it had been used which pretty much (I thought) was a cast iron defence that it was as described. Paypal aren't engaging in discussion and are just sending stock answers back.
    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 14th Jul 17, 10:11 AM
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    paypalvictim
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:11 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Jul 17, 10:11 AM
    Thank you for the info I was thinking that ebay should be involved although buyer had gone to paypal. It does bring into question the mismatch of ebay/paypal and how this is 'shifting sand' as far as private sellers are treated.
    • RFW
    • By RFW 14th Jul 17, 10:27 AM
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    RFW
    They have returned the broken VCR(which they broke I might add). The procedure doesn't allow for the buyer to not get money back it has a choice of partial refund(which buyer did not want),refund & they keep or return & refund....hobson's choice) as they had refunded buyer almost immediately.
    Originally posted by paypalvictim
    If you've got the VCR back, your only redress at this stage is with the buyer.
    I can't imagine it would be worth it or that we're talking a large sum of money here but, in theory, you could take a court claim against the buyer for breaking the item. You may win that case, it's also possible you wouldn't.
    .
    • RFW
    • By RFW 14th Jul 17, 10:31 AM
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    RFW
    In this sort of case, I think pretty much all experienced users will admit Ebay and Paypal will favour the buyer, they are unlikely to read any 'evidence' you submit, and even if you do, ignore it. I would love to see some stats. on how often sellers win, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 1% of the time.
    Originally posted by bxboards
    I won a few in the past. One I can think of was a wholesale lot that I'd sold (it was a product that was sold in Tesco at the time). Buyer tried to sell them on Ebay but had overpriced them and also overpaid in the first place (it was an auction). A few attempts at selling later the buyer complained that they weren't to standard and he wanted a full refund. I sent Ebay a link to the Tesco product and to the listings where the buyer had attempted to sell them and failed. They found in my favour, I think the buyer was suspended too.
    .
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 14th Jul 17, 10:57 AM
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    bxboards
    I won a few in the past. One I can think of was a wholesale lot that I'd sold (it was a product that was sold in Tesco at the time). Buyer tried to sell them on Ebay but had overpriced them and also overpaid in the first place (it was an auction). A few attempts at selling later the buyer complained that they weren't to standard and he wanted a full refund. I sent Ebay a link to the Tesco product and to the listings where the buyer had attempted to sell them and failed. They found in my favour, I think the buyer was suspended too.
    Originally posted by RFW
    Interestingly I have lost a similar case!

    I was selling item A in full working order. Ebay image and listing showed the serial number.

    Buyer buys my item. He is selling the same item, but broken.

    I get a Return request and his broken item back. I take a photo of his return, showing the serial number doesn't match my listing and pointing to his listing. I lose the case (and get a black mark for escalation) within 23 minutes.

    I went to MoneyClaim.gov.uk, got my 25 quid back, my item cost back, my seller fees back lost via losing a case, my Paypal fees back. and all postage costs back, inbound and outboard.. And I filed an ActionFraud case against the buyer.

    But I lost via Ebay with what I thought was 100% watertight. But I do file against any fraudulent buyer, regardless if it make economic sense for me to do so, on a point of principle.
    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 14th Jul 17, 11:03 AM
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    ballisticbrian
    To play devils advocate for a minute... Knowing everything I do about eBay buyer protection, if I bought a VCR on eBay and it appeared to work fine, I told the seller it worked and left good feedback and after a couple of uses something inside the machine stopped working, I would probably be extremely peeved and seek to redress the situation.
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 14th Jul 17, 11:08 AM
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    bxboards
    To play devils advocate for a minute... Knowing everything I do about eBay buyer protection, if I bought a VCR on eBay and it appeared to work fine, I told the seller it worked and left good feedback and after a couple of uses something inside the machine stopped working, I would probably be extremely peeved and seek to redress the situation.
    Originally posted by ballisticbrian
    I don't disagree in principle, but the 'stops working' is the sticking point. Ebay is not supposed to offer a guarantee for goods - if it did not work immediately, its not as described. if it goes wrong (for used good from a private seller), I am not so sure?

    Did the buyer use an old tape that chewed up the machine? Did it 'stop working' after he put something in the wrong way.

    We all know which way Ebay will decide but 'stopped working'; doesn't mean shoddy goods 100% of the time...or even its the seller who has sold something faulty. Without looking at these sort of nuances you can't have a protection scheme that works equally for buyers AND sellers.
    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 14th Jul 17, 11:38 AM
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    paypalvictim
    Thank you and definitely if as a seller you have to supply something as described in the listing how can you be held responsible for an item ceasing to work especially as you cannot guard against misuse. I have had my share of items that when I have received have been not as described or there has been a glaring ommission in the desription(such as damage). Even a buyer who bought an item said it hadn't arrived & upon looking at sold item has sold it on & received feedback. In the end you have to guage whether its worth it selling/buying on ebay.
    • paypalvictim
    • By paypalvictim 14th Jul 17, 11:40 AM
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    paypalvictim
    Thank you point of principle is definitely the thing. Its not a lot of money but when you are an honest buyer/seller with realistic expectations,people taking advantage hits hard.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 14th Jul 17, 12:30 PM
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    NBLondon
    Sorry but what is the relevancy of this when the whole thread is about a PayPal case?
    Originally posted by ballisticbrian
    Because the title starts eBay/Paypal seller protection and I'm talking about a case where eBay protection worked for a seller. Now as the OP says...
    Thank you for the info I was thinking that ebay should be involved although buyer had gone to paypal. It does bring into question the mismatch of ebay/paypal and how this is 'shifting sand' as far as private sellers are treated.
    Originally posted by paypalvictim
    The fact that the buyer went straight to PayPal and got a result when they possibly wouldn't have if they'd gone through eBay is a key part of the problem. Especially when it's more difficult to use eBay without offering PayPal.

    A buyer is entitled to be peeved if they buy something and it packs up shortly after - but if it's used and no guarantee was offered - that's tough. Everybody who buys a second-hand car from a private sale runs that risk and it's up to the buyer to prove that the seller knowingly sold a defective item (which is nigh on impossible to do). From the story here - the buyer has lied to PayPal to obtain the refund and been believed despite evidence of their story changing.
    This Be the Verse - Philip Larkin. The first line that everyone knows.
    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 14th Jul 17, 12:54 PM
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    ballisticbrian
    Everybody who buys a second-hand car from a private sale runs that risk and it's up to the buyer to prove that the seller knowingly sold a defective item
    But you can't compare buying a used car with this. A closer comparison would be comparing it to buying electronic equipment in a shop - which is the kind of place eBay is moving towards, where it wants to place itself in the marketplace. And if you compare it with a retail shop, the odds are stacked very differently.
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • bris
    • By bris 15th Jul 17, 12:08 PM
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    bris
    But you can't compare buying a used car with this. A closer comparison would be comparing it to buying electronic equipment in a shop - which is the kind of place eBay is moving towards, where it wants to place itself in the marketplace. And if you compare it with a retail shop, the odds are stacked very differently.
    Originally posted by ballisticbrian
    Well you can because the same law applies to all private sales.


    Ebay and Paypal have their own rules which have no basis in law. They will refund the seller and hold you liable but they have no legal claim to make you pay them back.


    The downside is you lose the use of the account you decide not to pay back, in this case Paypal, so can you live without a Paypal account? Personally it would be very difficult for me without a Paypal account.
    • RFW
    • By RFW 15th Jul 17, 5:37 PM
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    RFW
    Thank you and definitely if as a seller you have to supply something as described in the listing how can you be held responsible for an item ceasing to work especially as you cannot guard against misuse.

    In the end you have to guage whether its worth it selling/buying on ebay.
    Originally posted by paypalvictim
    Swinging it round if you buy a working item you should expect it to work for a certain amount of time. I suspect if you's listed it as not working you'd have got a similar price and not had the return to deal with.
    .
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