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    • doctor40
    • By doctor40 12th Jul 17, 10:14 PM
    • 40Posts
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    doctor40
    employer taking employers NI from my pay
    • #1
    • 12th Jul 17, 10:14 PM
    employer taking employers NI from my pay 12th Jul 17 at 10:14 PM
    hi, I wonder if anyone can help? I am self employed and work as a GP locum. One of the NHS areas in which I work has decided to make all of their locums "employed" to avoid issues with the taxman. When I take up a locum job, I agree a fee with the practice in question. I then am paid gross, and pay tax etc via self assessment.

    With the switch the employee status, I am now paid via PAYE. However the employer has deducted tax and both employers and employees NI. Their explanation....that I am paid a contracted rate and they need to make all of the necessary deductions from this, and I get whats left. So they have taken off £300 to pay employers NI.

    We were told about this change by a practice manager in March. I never received any official letter re this, although the practice manager got one, and has now passed it to me. I therefore didn't agree to the changes, or the deduction, and certainly didn't sign anything. The letter says "we need to deduct employment tax and NI" not specifying which.

    I also did the work at the end of March and the payment was made in May, so the work was done under the old rules and the payment made under the new rules, but again it did say in the letter I didn't see until today, that all payments made after April would be made under the new system "regardless of when the work was done". Can they do this? Again bearing in mind I didn't agree to this.



    SOrry it's confusing!

    thanks
Page 1
    • General Grant
    • By General Grant 12th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • 657 Posts
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    General Grant
    • #2
    • 12th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    As a self-employed person, did you issue terms of business and submit invoices?
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 12th Jul 17, 11:36 PM
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    jobbingmusician
    • #3
    • 12th Jul 17, 11:36 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jul 17, 11:36 PM
    How is this relevant? Things worked when s/he was self-employed, it's since the OP became an employed person that problems have started.

    If you are employed, you should be issued with a statement of T & C. My belief is that no, they can't do this as it is not an authorised deduction, but I am no expert....
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    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 13th Jul 17, 12:07 AM
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    p00hsticks
    • #4
    • 13th Jul 17, 12:07 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Jul 17, 12:07 AM
    this from the BMA seems to suggest that it is correct that employers NI is deducted


    What must an engager/agency do if the above tool says the locum is inside IR35?
    If the above tool says the worker falls inside IR35 for this engagement then they should be paid through the organisation’s payroll and tax and NI deducted at source. As an employer, the engager/agency will also then have to add 13.8% employer NI for all earnings above £156 per week in line with HMRC NI bandings. They would also have to generate payslips and a P60 end-of-year certificate for the worker as appropriate.
    The locum is also free to only accept the engagement subject to satisfactory employment terms, which would need to be negotiated.

    (taken from
    https://www.bma.org.uk/connecting-doctors/the_practice/b/weblog/posts/a-locum-s-guide-to-the-changes-to-ir35-legislation )
    • Xbigman
    • By Xbigman 13th Jul 17, 12:49 AM
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    Xbigman
    • #5
    • 13th Jul 17, 12:49 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Jul 17, 12:49 AM
    I read that to mean that if employed through a third party the third party is the one who pays employers NI and they should add it to their bill.
    However, this is complicated and needs professional advice.


    Darren
    Xbigman's guide to a happy life.

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    • TyreLever
    • By TyreLever 13th Jul 17, 3:30 AM
    • 141 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    TyreLever
    • #6
    • 13th Jul 17, 3:30 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jul 17, 3:30 AM
    I read that to mean that if employed through a third party the third party is the one who pays employers NI and they should add it to their bill.
    However, this is complicated and needs professional advice.


    Darren
    Originally posted by Xbigman
    Isn't this supposed to be an expert forum tho? Or is the name misleading?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jul 17, 7:08 AM
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    sangie595
    • #7
    • 13th Jul 17, 7:08 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jul 17, 7:08 AM
    Isn't this supposed to be an expert forum tho? Or is the name misleading?
    Originally posted by TyreLever
    Where does it say that this is an "expert" forum.. And whatever an "expert" is, there are so many variations and degrees of information that nobody could get it right every time - or even know about absolutely everything.

    OP, I would imagine this is what your BMA membership is for - they have legal advice available. What is being done is not, in itself, unlawful - it seems that they are operating a form of "umbrella", which is common amongst some employment agencies (and the NHS does have an internal employment agency, so could operate an umbrella scheme). But whether this is the case here depends upon a range of pieces of information that we do not have.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Jul 17, 8:18 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #8
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:18 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:18 AM
    Put your rates up, if your net is going down.

    They should also be taking out holiday pay and/or itemizing that separately under PAYE.
    • Alter ego
    • By Alter ego 13th Jul 17, 8:28 AM
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    Alter ego
    • #9
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:28 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Jul 17, 8:28 AM
    Put your rates up, if your net is going down.
    .
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Employees cannot do that.
    Ignore me if you like, it's not the real me anyway.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Jul 17, 8:47 AM
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    getmore4less
    Employees cannot do that.
    Originally posted by Alter ego
    They are not a real employee,

    Locums really operate as temp contractors so can decide what rates are acceptable for each job as they said in their first post

    When I take up a locum job, I agree a fee with the practice in question.
    • Flugelhorn
    • By Flugelhorn 13th Jul 17, 8:55 AM
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    Flugelhorn
    doctors.net and various Facebook Fora have been discussing this.

    Locums can put up their rates to cover the changes / decide if they want to carry on etc etc

    One of the issues here (and elsewhere) was the payment of invoices for work done in March and how that was treated differently.

    I don't think they can take employer's NI from you, they have to pay that - they can take employee's NI and if you overpay through the year you can get that back (happens with multiple jobs).
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 13th Jul 17, 9:40 AM
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    agrinnall
    Where does it say that this is an "expert" forum.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    I think the clue is in the website name: moneysavingexpert.com. Of course, it's completely meaningless, but you can see why people might come here expecting to find expertise for free, when really they need to pay for it (or as you suggest, access it from a source that they've already paid for).
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jul 17, 9:48 AM
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    sangie595
    I think the clue is in the website name: moneysavingexpert.com. Of course, it's completely meaningless, but you can see why people might come here expecting to find expertise for free, when really they need to pay for it (or as you suggest, access it from a source that they've already paid for).
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    True. But at the top of the forums it says that anyone can post! Hence it is very clear that these may or may not be "experts" - as we know, there are more than a few trolls for example, and I assume we don't mean "expert at trolling". If the correct "expert" advice is to get professional advice, then that's what it is!
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 13th Jul 17, 2:48 PM
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    martinsurrey
    d
    I don't think they can take employer's NI from you, they have to pay that - they can take employee's NI and if you overpay through the year you can get that back (happens with multiple jobs).
    Originally posted by Flugelhorn
    I think you'll find that whats happened is this:

    Under the old contractor method OP got £300 per day, then all taxes were the OPS responsibility.

    They have switched to payroll and have offered a salary of £263 per day.

    this means it costs the trust £263 + 13.8% NI = £263+£37 = £300

    So they haven't "taken" the NI from the OP, they have offered them a lower day rate as an employee.

    Which is perfectly legal, the on boarding of this change however may have been done wrong, as the OP is now an employee and as such has a contract of employment and all of the rights that come with that.
    • takman
    • By takman 13th Jul 17, 4:49 PM
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    takman
    I think the clue is in the website name: moneysavingexpert.com. Of course, it's completely meaningless, but you can see why people might come here expecting to find expertise for free, when really they need to pay for it (or as you suggest, access it from a source that they've already paid for).
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    It says "expert" not "experts", the "Money Saving Expert" (as he is the founder) is Martin Lewis.

    So i'm actually surprised that anyone would think this a forum full of experts offering free advice. TyreLever is the only person i have seen who has made this mistake.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 13th Jul 17, 9:37 PM
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    agrinnall
    It says "expert" not "experts", the "Money Saving Expert" (as he is the founder) is Martin Lewis.

    So i'm actually surprised that anyone would think this a forum full of experts offering free advice. TyreLever is the only person i have seen who has made this mistake.
    Originally posted by takman
    Actually there was a post on the Credit Card board yesterday that made a similar mistake, but you're right it doesn't happen very often.
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 14th Jul 17, 10:24 PM
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    paddyrg
    I think you'll find that whats happened is this:

    Under the old contractor method OP got £300 per day, then all taxes were the OPS responsibility.

    They have switched to payroll and have offered a salary of £263 per day.

    this means it costs the trust £263 + 13.8% NI = £263+£37 = £300

    So they haven't "taken" the NI from the OP, they have offered them a lower day rate as an employee.

    Which is perfectly legal, the on boarding of this change however may have been done wrong, as the OP is now an employee and as such has a contract of employment and all of the rights that come with that.
    Originally posted by martinsurrey
    Indeed. I suspect the practice are actually saying "we want the cost to us of having a locum to be £300, whether we pay on invoice or payroll, so we'll do whatever rate adjustments we need to make so the total cost to us is still £300 after accounting for NI, tax, holiday".

    If it takes the fee before minimum wage, that's a problem, but it doesn't, so from hereon in its down to negotiation.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 15th Jul 17, 6:28 PM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I think the clue is in the website name: moneysavingexpert.com. Of course, it's completely meaningless, but you can see why people might come here expecting to find expertise for free, when really they need to pay for it (or as you suggest, access it from a source that they've already paid for).
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    That's the website name. This is the forum. One should expect any articles on the website to be written with a reasonable degree of expert knowledge. Posts on the forum are entirely different.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Jul 17, 6:49 PM
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    sangie595
    10,356,493





    Angels dancing on the pinhead...
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 16th Jul 17, 8:40 PM
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    agrinnall
    That's the website name. This is the forum. One should expect any articles on the website to be written with a reasonable degree of expert knowledge. Posts on the forum are entirely different.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I suggest you direct your explanation to the OP rather than me, they are the one who made the erroneous assumption, I'm just pointing out the likely reason why they made it.
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