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  • FIRST POST
    • birtley90
    • By birtley90 12th Jul 17, 1:25 PM
    • 10Posts
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    birtley90
    Teacher told child she could wet herself
    • #1
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:25 PM
    Teacher told child she could wet herself 12th Jul 17 at 1:25 PM
    My daughter year 6 asked the teacher if she could go to the toilet during the afternoon but was refused. She waited a bit and asked again but was told to wait until hometime. My daughter said she couldn't wait that long and the teacher replied with "If you can't wait you will just have to wet yourself"

    Fuming with the teacher!
Page 8
    • gonebust
    • By gonebust 13th Jul 17, 9:44 PM
    • 169 Posts
    • 605 Thanks
    gonebust
    So when do school holidays start and end?

    Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?

    Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due
    • thorsoak
    • By thorsoak 13th Jul 17, 9:48 PM
    • 5,407 Posts
    • 24,680 Thanks
    thorsoak
    So when do school holidays start and end?

    Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?

    Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due
    Originally posted by gonebust
    And don't forget the blazers, ties, polo and sweat shirts!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jul 17, 9:59 AM
    • 14,480 Posts
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    Guest101
    See this is where you're making your mistake. - i respectfully disagree. Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed). - employment law allows an employer to have a policy in place. Whilst the law doesn't specify every circumstance, it does allow the employer to have rules. Just like there is no law permitting random strangers on the internet to tell you when you can use the toilet, but nor are there any laws prohibiting it.

    As for all the examples you have mentioned, you said yourself they'd be permitted to go to the toilet but might need to wait on someone coming to relieve them from their duties - thats entirely different to refusing to allow them to use the facilities at all during working hours (indeed, employers by law need to provide bathroom facilities - why would they need to provide them if the employer can dictate when they can or cannot use the toilet?) - I think the messages are getting mixed up. I'm saying the employer can tell you when you can use the facilities, when you take a break from work duties in effect. No different to a school. If it appears as though I was saying anything else, I wasn't. (also not all employees have ready access to toilet facilities, so no the law doesn't require an employer to provide that)

    Again, we're not property. Your employer only has a complaint if you are breaching your contract of employment. Employees on the other hand can complain if their employer breaches the contract of employment or about the contract of employment itself. - Not really. It cant compel you to break the law obviously. But basically if you don't like it, you can be dismissed. (for no reason in the first two years) and subsequently by policy.

    As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member. - As far as I'm aware, as long as the employee knows that they are monitored, you can have CCTV pointed anywhere you like.

    As for your last examples, having a cigarette or playing with your phone is not a basic need like going to the toilet is. A better comparison would be breaks for nourishment - which is another bodily need that arguably is easier to ignore than the need of going to the toilet. - the law says you are allowed a 20 minute break if you are working for six hours or longer. There is no mention of nourishment in this, though in reality that is what many people do in their break If the law recognises theres a right to a break for nourishment, why do you think it would say there isn't a right to use the toilets if needed? Keep in mind prisoner payouts for "slopping out". If having to pee in a bucket during certain hours breaches your rights and entitles you to compensation, I wouldn't quite be so confident that courts would rule theres nothing wrong with telling an employee "you cant pee between the hours of x & y".
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Prisoners are compelled to be there, you are not.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jul 17, 10:01 AM
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    Guest101
    I haven't read this thread but had quite enough on the previous one on the same subject, and contributed as I'm a teacher of all ages, including primary school.

    It seems to me there's a very authoritarian streak coming out these days, including in teaching. Perhaps they'll ask the kids to put the request in writing and turn it down if the semicolons are not correctly formed.. There seems increasingly little empathy for other people ("I don't have a problem"), or understanding that others have different physical issues. As I said in the previous thread a competent teacher can deal with the issue without being rigidly authoritarian.

    As for employers, no they can't dictate to you, but in exactly the same way they can ask you to try and not go at certain times, they cannot insist, otherwise they could have an actionable case against them. Any reasonable adult will do what they can on their timings, but ultimately necessity dictates.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    On what basis?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jul 17, 10:02 AM
    • 14,480 Posts
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    Guest101
    It is equally important that stupid rules are ignored and challenged, probably more important actually.
    Originally posted by Carrot007
    And you'd be happy to lose your job over that?
    • BJV
    • By BJV 14th Jul 17, 10:24 AM
    • 2,232 Posts
    • 3,349 Thanks
    BJV
    Ok I got home last night and as I have an 11 year old - year 6 and a 14 year old already in secondary school I asked them what happens and what they would do. I was just curious as hey lots of back lash from teachers seeing going to the toilet as a slight on authority.

    My Daughter said. I would try to go during break but sometimes you just have to go. It does not happen often but if needed she would put her hand up and ask. The teacher would ask if she could wait. Sometimes she admitted she would have a second think and say yes ok I can wait. Other times she would say no I can not and she would be able to go.

    Same for my son.

    It appears if you start to treat children as young people with respect they will respect the rules and the authority behind them. Work with the rules instead of fighting against them.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jul 17, 10:35 AM
    • 14,480 Posts
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    Guest101
    Ok I got home last night and as I have an 11 year old - year 6 and a 14 year old already in secondary school I asked them what happens and what they would do. I was just curious as hey lots of back lash from teachers seeing going to the toilet as a slight on authority.

    My Daughter said. I would try to go during break but sometimes you just have to go. It does not happen often but if needed she would put her hand up and ask. The teacher would ask if she could wait. Sometimes she admitted she would have a second think and say yes ok I can wait. Other times she would say no I can not and she would be able to go.

    Same for my son.

    It appears if you start to treat children as young people with respect they will respect the rules and the authority behind them. Work with the rules instead of fighting against them.
    Originally posted by BJV
    the are other circumstances to consider, your children are no doubt well behaved and attentive members of the class. No reason for a teacher to consider this request as a chance to skive off.


    Yes they should go at break times, and it seems they understand that. So it's no doubt a rare occurrence as you said
    • Frogletina
    • By Frogletina 14th Jul 17, 11:30 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
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    Frogletina
    Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed).

    As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    When I was working I was often monitored regarding going to the loo. At one time I had to put a code into my telephone when I needed the loo and the percentage of time was recorded. Other times I was not allowed to go if there was not a loo card available (they were hung up in the office) and I had to wait until someone in the office returned with a card before I was allowed to go. But if I really needed to go, I did and faced the consequences afterwards.

    How someone is supposed to work or learn when needing the loo is something I've never understood.

    Going back to my school days I remember that I needed to use the loo between every lesson that we had - double periods were not good for me. Also before and after lunch.

    I do not remember any teacher refusing anyone who needed to go to the loo during lessons, though one would have to be brave to ask.

    There were never any problems with our behaviour when we were out of the class for whatever reason because the school had very clear rules which were followed, and a headmistress who prowled about and took no nonsense from anyone.

    frogletina
    Not Rachmaninov
    But Nyman
    The heart asks for pleasure first

    SPC 8 #441 £1567.31 SPC 9 #441 £1014.64
    • pimento
    • By pimento 14th Jul 17, 3:07 PM
    • 5,158 Posts
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    pimento
    Speaking of using the loo while at work..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4695666/Amazon-courier-POOS-customer-s-drive.html
    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." -- Red Adair
    • pimento
    • By pimento 14th Jul 17, 3:13 PM
    • 5,158 Posts
    • 6,707 Thanks
    pimento
    As for the argument of employees being able too use the loo Teachers not always can. I was desperate for the toilet all morning but had to wait until lunchtime
    Originally posted by louiseturner
    Why didn't you go in the break before class?
    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." -- Red Adair
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 14th Jul 17, 5:12 PM
    • 10,996 Posts
    • 8,258 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Prisoners are compelled to be there, you are not.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Actually you are legally compelled to be there - under contract/employment law though rather than criminal. But just like a prisoner, you breach the terms of your incarceration and you'll be subject to the consequences of that breach.

    Again, law either permits (or allows if you prefer) something or prohibits something. As the law says nothing on this matter, it is neither permitted/allowed nor prohibited by law. Meaning the legal position on the subject is unclear. Its different saying "theres nothing in law which stops them from doing so" to actually saying "the law allows them to do so" iyswim?

    Yes, the law does require employers to provide toilet facilities under the The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992.

    As for employment law, again something is either permitted by law or prohibited. It is not that dismissing employees with less than 2 years of service for no reason is allowed by law, its that only those with 103 weeks of service (although there are exceptions - such as discrimination of a protected characteristic or whistleblowers) have the right to bring a claim under such a cause.

    As for CCTV...again you're wrong. Read the ICO's guide on CCTV - any monitoring needs to be justified. Nor can they use it for a purpose it wasn't intended for (ie if its set up for crime prevention/security, they can't then use it to check up on you and would be breaking the law by doing so). Covert monitoring is particularly hard to justify as is CCTV with audio recording enabled or any type of monitoring in places where theres a higher degree of privacy expected (such as bathrooms or changing rooms).

    Going to the loo is part & parcel of being. Plus any such policy prohibiting toilet breaks would possibly disproportionately affect women. We have biological functions - theres no getting around it. We're not machines. As I said, I've heard of workplaces having policies to ensure "comfort" breaks aren't abused, but never one that downright prohibited you from going during working hours. Perhaps because when its nature calling, you need to answer.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • louiseturner
    • By louiseturner 14th Jul 17, 6:33 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    louiseturner
    I was too busy preparing for the next lesson, but the children are not so should use their break time
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 14th Jul 17, 9:16 PM
    • 3,043 Posts
    • 8,354 Thanks
    LilElvis
    I was too busy preparing for the next lesson, but the children are not so should use their break time
    Originally posted by louiseturner
    You wouldn't have been so rushed preparing your lessons if you hadn't been posting on here at gone 1 in the morning and was on line here again at 8.43. I feel sorry for your pupils when their teacher hasn't prepared her lessons in advance and is working after only a few hours sleep.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 15th Jul 17, 7:12 AM
    • 17,059 Posts
    • 43,112 Thanks
    Pollycat
    I was too busy preparing for the next lesson, but the children are not so should use their break time
    Originally posted by louiseturner
    I wonder what birtley90 was doing when you were busy preparing for the next lesson.....
    • Jojo the Tightfisted
    • By Jojo the Tightfisted 16th Jul 17, 3:44 PM
    • 22,583 Posts
    • 86,417 Thanks
    Jojo the Tightfisted
    How terrible!!!!

    I would hate to think of my year 6 going to big school in sept needing the loo and not being able to go. I understand the fact that you may not want disruptions but surely it would be more distracting to have to wait.

    Sorry but when I need to go I need to go. I am an adult and I can not predict if I will need the loo in the next 2 hours.

    Yes school is a place of education respect AND TOLERANCE.
    Originally posted by BJV
    'Big School'? Do you mean Secondary Education?

    I think, whatever has happened before now, you'll need to encourage your child to go during break or lunch, as wandering off to the loo during lessons really isn't permitted at Secondary Level. After all, the teachers aren't able to leave a class unsupervised to do it, it's perfectly possible outside certain medical issues which a doctor is able to verify, for somebody of that age to wait two hours - yes, exceptions are made for periods, but that's an exception, not the rule.


    You may feel that you can go to the toilet whenever you like, but I don't suppose you do it in the street as soon as you feel an urge or stop on the motorway hard shoulder - you go when there is a legitimate opportunity, perhaps before you leave your home, then go again when there is the facility to do so - a cashier at a supermarket checkout can't leave the till whenever they like if it's busy, a bus driver can't hop out of the cab for a wee whilst there are passengers on board - the vast majority of us have to get used to not going whenever we feel like it, because it's how life is.


    Functionally, it takes about two hours for water consumed to be fully dealt with by the body, so waiting from the end of lunch until the end of school seems perfectly in line with normal biological processes - assuming they don't consume caffeine containing drinks, which act as diuretics. The school day is roughly 9 to 11, so breakfast and loo trip before going to school takes you up to morning break, go again, have a drink of water, and you need to go again around 1 - lunchtime - do that, have lunch/drink and then it's just about the end of the school day, time to go, then go home and then there's the ability to go whenever you want (assuming nobody else is in the bath or loo at the precise time, whereby you just have to wait until they're done).


    Medical conditions aside, it's not an abuse of human rights. Human Rights like not being massacred for being the wrong ethnicity, not being married off at the age of 6, being able to drink clean, safe water, being able to believe whatever faith (or none) that you have, are the ones that we need to be concerned with - not things like a kid being told they need to stay in class rather than trot off to the toilet in the middle of a lesson to wee/have a chat with a friend/play a game on their mobile/draw penises in boardmarker on the wall/set off the fire alarm.
    I could dream to wide extremes, I could do or die: I could yawn and be withdrawn and watch the world go by.

    Yup you are officially Rock n Roll
    Originally posted by colinw
    • emsywoo123
    • By emsywoo123 16th Jul 17, 11:02 PM
    • 4,947 Posts
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    emsywoo123

    It appears if you start to treat children as young people with respect they will respect the rules and the authority behind them. .
    Originally posted by BJV
    This really is the point, isn't it. I really do think it is that simple.

    My DD is nearly 14, and I asked her as well, and it is exactly the same with her.

    I teach in FE (16+) and mine never really ask to go to the loo, but if they do I let them go. It has never occurred to me to not let them, what with them being actual human beings and everything.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 17th Jul 17, 1:41 PM
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    Guest101
    Actually you are legally compelled to be there - under contract/employment law though rather than criminal. - Not compelled, you are required to be there, but it's voluntary. You can choose not to turn up. But just like a prisoner, you breach the terms of your incarceration and you'll be subject to the consequences of that breach.

    Again, law either permits (or allows if you prefer) something or prohibits something. As the law says nothing on this matter, it is neither permitted/allowed nor prohibited by law. Meaning the legal position on the subject is unclear. Its different saying "theres nothing in law which stops them from doing so" to actually saying "the law allows them to do so" iyswim? - sorry I don't. The law typically prevents actions, though I understand what you mean allowing. For employment purposes for example, you are entitled to 5.6 weeks paid annual leave, but the law says that your employer can tell you when you must take that leave (common example is bank holidays). So the

    Yes, the law does require employers to provide toilet facilities under the The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. - However, that is not always practical. As I said, there are many jobs (common example - deliver driver) where a toilet is impractical. So yes there are circumstances when facilities must be provided, but that is not universal.

    As for employment law, again something is either permitted by law or prohibited. It is not that dismissing employees with less than 2 years of service for no reason is allowed by law, its that only those with 103 weeks of service (although there are exceptions - such as discrimination of a protected characteristic or whistleblowers) have the right to bring a claim under such a cause. - Indeed. But the law therefore allows, by virtue of only permitting action after a certain period, for employers to dismiss for no reason.

    As for CCTV...again you're wrong. Read the ICO's guide on CCTV - any monitoring needs to be justified. - indeed, but that would be easily done so for the prevention of crime, for investigatory reasons, for safety reasons. It is not a blanket ban, just means you must have reasonable cause to. Nor can they use it for a purpose it wasn't intended for (ie if its set up for crime prevention/security, they can't then use it to check up on you and would be breaking the law by doing so). Covert monitoring is particularly hard to justify as is CCTV with audio recording enabled or any type of monitoring in places where theres a higher degree of privacy expected (such as bathrooms or changing rooms). - ofcourse, I didn't disagree with that.

    Going to the loo is part & parcel of being. Plus any such policy prohibiting toilet breaks would possibly disproportionately affect women. We have biological functions - theres no getting around it. We're not machines. - indeed, but as long as the policy is fair, it is allowed. As I said, I've heard of workplaces having policies to ensure "comfort" breaks aren't abused, but never one that downright prohibited you from going during working hours. Perhaps because when its nature calling, you need to answer.
    Originally posted by unholyangel

    And I haven't suggested a blanket ban would be reasonable, I have said, numerous times that it is reasonable to tell people when they can use the facilities.
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