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    • birtley90
    • By birtley90 12th Jul 17, 1:25 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 12Thanks
    birtley90
    Teacher told child she could wet herself
    • #1
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:25 PM
    Teacher told child she could wet herself 12th Jul 17 at 1:25 PM
    My daughter year 6 asked the teacher if she could go to the toilet during the afternoon but was refused. She waited a bit and asked again but was told to wait until hometime. My daughter said she couldn't wait that long and the teacher replied with "If you can't wait you will just have to wet yourself"

    Fuming with the teacher!
Page 6
    • BJV
    • By BJV 13th Jul 17, 3:13 PM
    • 2,249 Posts
    • 3,369 Thanks
    BJV
    Absolutely, which is why we have policies and rules, so everyone knows where they stand...
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Originally Posted by BJV View Post
    Ok. There are rules and they should be flexible as we are dealing with people, human beings and we are all different. - rules typically only apply to human beings.... Not be be pedantic but no they don't rules can apply to lots of different things. From building control to gravity. There are rules.

    Perhaps I am lucky but my children's local school advocate that education is a partnership. They want to be part of our community and they are. They are also very strict. Dress and behavior codes etc. - so you would be happy for a teacher to comment on your parenting? - It is not correct that teachers are trained to look out for signs of bad parenting. Don't they work with social workers already.?

    I do respect my children's teachers but if I disagree I will tell them. Privately not in public. Just like for ooh example when my daughter and her friends came home from school in tears because of the amount of pressure that the school was putting her under for the recent year 6 tests. Mass's of children going off sick, teachers screaming that they where all about to fail. Shouting that they would be letting the school down, disappointing their parents. ???? Really. ???? - I suspect that is only partially true. Did you ask the teacher what happened? Yes I did at parents evening. Her bottom lip got very wobbly and she said she was sorry and that she had been under a lot of pressure. It happens we all make mistakes. She had the grace and the nerve to to say sorry. If i had never made a mistake? We all make them. All good now.

    I am proud of my two and want them to reach their full potential no matter what that is.

    I spoke to the teacher and she apologized. She spoke to the head teacher. They sent a letter home in fact to all parents. They said that the school is under a lot of pressure and that it had filtered down. - because students were failing? TBH I don't think so. The school has excellent results and outstanding reputation within the area. But teachers are now under so much pressure to ensure that the results are among the best in the area. It has to come out somewhere??? I actually felt so sorry for her. She is a good teacher, nice person and made a mistake and had the good grace to admit it.

    The point I make is that Teachers too are human they make good choices and bad. They make mistakes. They have good days and bad and can also feel pressure ? No one is perfect not me not you.

    I think ultimately we will never agree and that is ok. You are entitled to your view as I am mine. You will raise your children as you believe to be the best way and I mine.
    Last edited by BJV; 13-07-2017 at 3:18 PM.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • BJV
    • By BJV 13th Jul 17, 3:15 PM
    • 2,249 Posts
    • 3,369 Thanks
    BJV
    Oh grow up for goodness sake, you are supposed to be the adult.
    Originally posted by jondav
    OMG made me chuckle. Thanks.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jul 17, 3:54 PM
    • 15,128 Posts
    • 14,763 Thanks
    Guest101
    Could not agree more .

    My 11 year old would not want to talk to a male teacher. Not that she thinks that he would be embarrassed but she would.

    My 14 year old son would equally find it embarrassing talking to a female teacher about an erection. Not sexism reality.

    Funny I wondered when the sexism point would be raised. - Usually its shortly after someone makes a sexist comment.

    " if you are loosing an argument pull out the ism??? " - Or, when it's actually an 'ism'
    Sexism, Racism, Ageism you name it. People are so frightened to be called an ism and honestly I am none that shy away. - called an ...ist not ism

    How sad !!!!!

    Strange I have just had to have some very personal medical tests the doctor and the hospital both times we proud to tell me that it would be done by female and lady doctors. - I suspect that's simply because of safeguarding, as intimate procedures fall under different rules

    For safeguarding issues when children are a certain age in a charity I volunteered with, only same sex where allowed in changing rooms. - indeed, hardly comparable to discussing a topic with a child though This is because the young people who went said they felt less self conscious. MMM they must be sexist. - no, it's because the charity decided those were the rules and policies

    God are they sexist too!!! Who knew the NHS and now the educational systems where so sexist.
    Originally posted by BJV


    try again please
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jul 17, 3:59 PM
    • 15,128 Posts
    • 14,763 Thanks
    Guest101
    Originally Posted by BJV View Post
    Ok. There are rules and they should be flexible as we are dealing with people, human beings and we are all different. - rules typically only apply to human beings.... Not be be pedantic but no they don't rules can apply to lots of different things. From building control to gravity. There are rules. - Gravity is a law, not a rule. That aside the building control applies to people, the building isn't going to break the rules, the occupiers or owners might.

    Perhaps I am lucky but my children's local school advocate that education is a partnership. They want to be part of our community and they are. They are also very strict. Dress and behavior codes etc. - so you would be happy for a teacher to comment on your parenting? - It is not correct that teachers are trained to look out for signs of bad parenting. Don't they work with social workers already.? - No they don't. they are trained to look at signs of abuse. I'm talking about commenting on your parenting.

    I do respect my children's teachers but if I disagree I will tell them. Privately not in public. Just like for ooh example when my daughter and her friends came home from school in tears because of the amount of pressure that the school was putting her under for the recent year 6 tests. Mass's of children going off sick, teachers screaming that they where all about to fail. Shouting that they would be letting the school down, disappointing their parents. ???? Really. ???? - I suspect that is only partially true. Did you ask the teacher what happened? Yes I did at parents evening. Her bottom lip got very wobbly and she said she was sorry and that she had been under a lot of pressure. It happens we all make mistakes. She had the grace and the nerve to to say sorry. If i had never made a mistake? We all make them. All good now. - indeed. good on her

    I am proud of my two and want them to reach their full potential no matter what that is.

    I spoke to the teacher and she apologized. She spoke to the head teacher. They sent a letter home in fact to all parents. They said that the school is under a lot of pressure and that it had filtered down. - because students were failing? TBH I don't think so. The school has excellent results and outstanding reputation within the area. But teachers are now under so much pressure to ensure that the results are among the best in the area. It has to come out somewhere??? I actually felt so sorry for her. She is a good teacher, nice person and made a mistake and had the good grace to admit it.

    The point I make is that Teachers too are human they make good choices and bad. They make mistakes. They have good days and bad and can also feel pressure ? No one is perfect not me not you.

    I think ultimately we will never agree and that is ok. You are entitled to your view as I am mine. You will raise your children as you believe to be the best way and I mine.
    Originally posted by BJV
    Indeed, and I'm not going try convince you of my viewpoint. It is important that rules are followed. We have to throughout life and kids pick up on this early on.


    if it's ok to break them early, it may be ok to break them later
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th Jul 17, 4:00 PM
    • 11,537 Posts
    • 8,668 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Someone likened it to prison....except in prison, they don't tell you when you can pee and when you can't.

    Can't see why some people want to dictate others bathroom habits so badly. We ended slavery quite some time ago so no person has that kind of authority over anyone else. Fair enough if it was happening in a pattern, always at the same time (ie possibly trying to avoid a certain subject) then perhaps have a word with them/their parents. But allowing them out of class for the loo will have less disruption to their education (and their classmates) than making them sit for 2 hours crossing their legs & squirming in their seat because they're bursting.

    When I was at school, we needed the toilet we said to the teacher (didnt have to say why) and then we went to the toilet. It was the same in primary, secondary & further education.

    I was raised to respect authority, but at the same time I was raised not to blindly do what I was told just because. Perhaps I'm biased but I don't see that as a bad thing. For one, you won't ever hear me claiming "its not my fault, I was just doing what I was told". Teaching kids to do whatever they're told no matter what just feeds into a lack of personal responsibility. If I had even tried using that excuse I would have been asked "and if they had asked you to jump off a cliff, would you have done it?"
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • BJV
    • By BJV 13th Jul 17, 4:07 PM
    • 2,249 Posts
    • 3,369 Thanks
    BJV
    Indeed, and I'm not going try convince you of my viewpoint. It is important that rules are followed. We have to throughout life and kids pick up on this early on.


    if it's ok to break them early, it may be ok to break them later
    Originally posted by Guest101
    No rules rule should never be broken. But some are so insignificant it makes no sense well to me at least to waste time enforcing them.

    Again I stress don't think we will ever agree you see it as a matter of respect and control I see it in a different light and think that there are far more productive ways to assert authority.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • BJV
    • By BJV 13th Jul 17, 4:09 PM
    • 2,249 Posts
    • 3,369 Thanks
    BJV
    Someone likened it to prison....except in prison, they don't tell you when you can pee and when you can't.

    Can't see why some people want to dictate others bathroom habits so badly. We ended slavery quite some time ago so no person has that kind of authority over anyone else. Fair enough if it was happening in a pattern, always at the same time (ie possibly trying to avoid a certain subject) then perhaps have a word with them/their parents. But allowing them out of class for the loo will have less disruption to their education (and their classmates) than making them sit for 2 hours crossing their legs & squirming in their seat because they're bursting. "
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Could not of said it better. ( I have tried ) ha ha
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jul 17, 4:14 PM
    • 15,128 Posts
    • 14,763 Thanks
    Guest101
    Someone likened it to prison....except in prison, they don't tell you when you can pee and when you can't.

    Can't see why some people want to dictate others bathroom habits so badly. We ended slavery quite some time ago so no person has that kind of authority over anyone else. - Your boss can legitimately tell you when you can and cannot use the bathroom. Fair enough if it was happening in a pattern, always at the same time (ie possibly trying to avoid a certain subject) then perhaps have a word with them/their parents. But allowing them out of class for the loo will have less disruption to their education (and their classmates) than making them sit for 2 hours crossing their legs & squirming in their seat because they're bursting. - or it may teach them to use the toilet appropriately.

    When I was at school, we needed the toilet we said to the teacher (didnt have to say why) and then we went to the toilet. It was the same in primary, secondary & further education. - that's nice, but that's not the debate.

    I was raised to respect authority, but at the same time I was raised not to blindly do what I was told just because. - that's fine. But you were taught that actions have consequences. Perhaps I'm biased but I don't see that as a bad thing. For one, you won't ever hear me claiming "its not my fault, I was just doing what I was told". - but you appreciate if you don't do as you're told you could for example lose your job. Teaching kids to do whatever they're told no matter what just feeds into a lack of personal responsibility. - that's simply not true. If you tell them to use the bathroom during a break, they are empowered to go during the required times. Its exactly that, taking personal responsibility. If I had even tried using that excuse I would have been asked "and if they had asked you to jump off a cliff, would you have done it?"
    Originally posted by unholyangel


    Well whoever asked you that was ignorant
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 13th Jul 17, 4:16 PM
    • 1,360 Posts
    • 5,724 Thanks
    BrassicWoman
    Have weeing threads replaced school uniform threads?
    Downsized and mortgage free
    Nov17 grocery challenge £133.10/£150
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th Jul 17, 5:10 PM
    • 11,537 Posts
    • 8,668 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Well whoever asked you that was ignorant
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Perhaps you think your employer can legitimately tell you to avoid a basic biological function/need, but many people do not agree with you. I've never heard of any job stopping people going to the toilet when needed - not even amazon (who had their working conditions likened to concentration camps). Some may have a policy in place to ensure its not abused, but not one that actually prevents people from going.


    Indeed taking an overzealous approach could be an intrusion into their privacy - as I said, we abolished slavery. Your employer does not own you - not even on company time. They're merely paying you to perform duties.

    As for teaching them to do what they're told without question not feeding into a lack of personal responsibility....I didn't realise you had a PhD in psychology. Where did you study?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jul 17, 5:27 PM
    • 15,128 Posts
    • 14,763 Thanks
    Guest101
    Perhaps you think your employer can legitimately tell you to avoid a basic biological function/need - not think, know. My employer doesn't, but it's perfectly reasonable for an employer to tell you when you can be excused from work duties. , but many people do not agree with you - what do you mean agree or not. that's what employment law says. . I've never heard of any job stopping people going to the toilet when needed - cashiers, driver, home carers, security officers, police, military, call centre. Your employer decides when you take holiday, when you take break and when you are working. - not even amazon (who had their working conditions likened to concentration camps). Some may have a policy in place to ensure its not abused, but not one that actually prevents people from going. - Which is no different to a school. there is a policy of going between lessons. An employer may have an equivalent.


    Indeed taking an overzealous approach could be an intrusion into their privacy - on what basis? - as I said, we abolished slavery. Your employer does not own you - not even on company time. They're merely paying you to perform duties. - and to not do other things. You cant sit on your phone. You cant have a beer and a cigarette. etc. etc. You may not like it, but that is not relevant

    As for teaching them to do what they're told without question not feeding into a lack of personal responsibility....I didn't realise you had a PhD in psychology. Where did you study?
    Originally posted by unholyangel


    If you have a problem with my argument, present it. Don't question my qualifications to make the argument.


    I don't have a PhD in history but I understand that there are lessons to be learnt. I didn't witness the second world war, but I understand the horrors.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th Jul 17, 6:25 PM
    • 11,537 Posts
    • 8,668 Thanks
    unholyangel
    If you have a problem with my argument, present it. Don't question my qualifications to make the argument.


    I don't have a PhD in history but I understand that there are lessons to be learnt. I didn't witness the second world war, but I understand the horrors.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    See this is where you're making your mistake. Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed). Just like there is no law permitting random strangers on the internet to tell you when you can use the toilet, but nor are there any laws prohibiting it.

    As for all the examples you have mentioned, you said yourself they'd be permitted to go to the toilet but might need to wait on someone coming to relieve them from their duties - thats entirely different to refusing to allow them to use the facilities at all during working hours (indeed, employers by law need to provide bathroom facilities - why would they need to provide them if the employer can dictate when they can or cannot use the toilet?)

    Again, we're not property. Your employer only has a complaint if you are breaching your contract of employment. Employees on the other hand can complain if their employer breaches the contract of employment or about the contract of employment itself.

    As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member.

    As for your last examples, having a cigarette or playing with your phone is not a basic need like going to the toilet is. A better comparison would be breaks for nourishment - which is another bodily need that arguably is easier to ignore than the need of going to the toilet. If the law recognises theres a right to a break for nourishment, why do you think it would say there isn't a right to use the toilets if needed? Keep in mind prisoner payouts for "slopping out". If having to pee in a bucket during certain hours breaches your rights and entitles you to compensation, I wouldn't quite be so confident that courts would rule theres nothing wrong with telling an employee "you cant pee between the hours of x & y".
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 13th Jul 17, 6:49 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,175 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    I haven't read this thread but had quite enough on the previous one on the same subject, and contributed as I'm a teacher of all ages, including primary school.

    It seems to me there's a very authoritarian streak coming out these days, including in teaching. Perhaps they'll ask the kids to put the request in writing and turn it down if the semicolons are not correctly formed.. There seems increasingly little empathy for other people ("I don't have a problem"), or understanding that others have different physical issues. As I said in the previous thread a competent teacher can deal with the issue without being rigidly authoritarian.

    As for employers, no they can't dictate to you, but in exactly the same way they can ask you to try and not go at certain times, they cannot insist, otherwise they could have an actionable case against them. Any reasonable adult will do what they can on their timings, but ultimately necessity dictates.
    • Carrot007
    • By Carrot007 13th Jul 17, 7:22 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 553 Thanks
    Carrot007
    It is important that rules are followed.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    It is equally important that stupid rules are ignored and challenged, probably more important actually.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 13th Jul 17, 7:25 PM
    • 18,304 Posts
    • 46,843 Thanks
    Pollycat
    Today coming in from lunchtime, I had a boy and 2 girls ask for the toilet, that really is not acceptable.
    Originally posted by louiseturner
    Now, I saw this post ^^^^ very briefly around 18:30 but it was posted by the OP - birtley90.

    I saw it, thought 'that's odd, the OP appears to be cotradicting herself.
    So I multi-quoted the OP's first post and this one (by birtley90) and before I could finish my post, the latest one had disappeared.

    The OP had clearly realised she'd slipped up and posted under the wrong username and deleted the post.

    So louiseturner - you are outed as being an AE of the OP (birtley90).

    It's rather sad that you 'both' have to play silly games.

    And if you must play silly games, at least remember which username you're supposed to be posting under.
    Last edited by Pollycat; 13-07-2017 at 7:37 PM.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jul 17, 8:09 PM
    • 1,875 Posts
    • 5,150 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    Now, I saw this post ^^^^ very briefly around 18:30 but it was posted by the OP - birtley90.

    I saw it, thought 'that's odd, the OP appears to be cotradicting herself.
    So I multi-quoted the OP's first post and this one (by birtley90) and before I could finish my post, the latest one had disappeared.

    The OP had clearly realised she'd slipped up and posted under the wrong username and deleted the post.

    So louiseturner - you are outed as being an AE of the OP (birtley90).

    It's rather sad that you 'both' have to play silly games.

    And if you must play silly games, at least remember which username you're supposed to be posting under.
    Originally posted by Pollycat
    That's a bit disturbing actually, creating fake usernames to discuss small children going to the toilet.
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 13th Jul 17, 9:19 PM
    • 1,087 Posts
    • 2,156 Thanks
    Jackmydad
    Someone likened it to prison....except in prison, they don't tell you when you can pee and when you can't.

    Can't see why some people want to dictate others bathroom habits so badly. We ended slavery quite some time ago so no person has that kind of authority over anyone else. Fair enough if it was happening in a pattern, always at the same time (ie possibly trying to avoid a certain subject) then perhaps have a word with them/their parents. But allowing them out of class for the loo will have less disruption to their education (and their classmates) than making them sit for 2 hours crossing their legs & squirming in their seat because they're bursting.

    When I was at school, we needed the toilet we said to the teacher (didnt have to say why) and then we went to the toilet. It was the same in primary, secondary & further education.

    I was raised to respect authority, but at the same time I was raised not to blindly do what I was told just because. Perhaps I'm biased but I don't see that as a bad thing. For one, you won't ever hear me claiming "its not my fault, I was just doing what I was told". Teaching kids to do whatever they're told no matter what just feeds into a lack of personal responsibility. If I had even tried using that excuse I would have been asked "and if they had asked you to jump off a cliff, would you have done it?"
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Exactly. I went to school in the 1960s. Grammar School at 11. Think "Goodbye Mr Chips" without the boarding part.

    I can't remember anyone being refused a toilet visit either at primary school, or at the grammar. Some teachers would tell you to "Hurry up!"
    Some of them were very strict as well, and definitely not to be messed with.
    Same at college. You just went out if you needed to.
    • gonebust
    • By gonebust 13th Jul 17, 9:44 PM
    • 168 Posts
    • 625 Thanks
    gonebust
    So when do school holidays start and end?

    Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?

    Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due
    • thorsoak
    • By thorsoak 13th Jul 17, 9:48 PM
    • 5,474 Posts
    • 24,855 Thanks
    thorsoak
    So when do school holidays start and end?

    Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?

    Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due
    Originally posted by gonebust
    And don't forget the blazers, ties, polo and sweat shirts!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jul 17, 9:59 AM
    • 15,128 Posts
    • 14,763 Thanks
    Guest101
    See this is where you're making your mistake. - i respectfully disagree. Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed). - employment law allows an employer to have a policy in place. Whilst the law doesn't specify every circumstance, it does allow the employer to have rules. Just like there is no law permitting random strangers on the internet to tell you when you can use the toilet, but nor are there any laws prohibiting it.

    As for all the examples you have mentioned, you said yourself they'd be permitted to go to the toilet but might need to wait on someone coming to relieve them from their duties - thats entirely different to refusing to allow them to use the facilities at all during working hours (indeed, employers by law need to provide bathroom facilities - why would they need to provide them if the employer can dictate when they can or cannot use the toilet?) - I think the messages are getting mixed up. I'm saying the employer can tell you when you can use the facilities, when you take a break from work duties in effect. No different to a school. If it appears as though I was saying anything else, I wasn't. (also not all employees have ready access to toilet facilities, so no the law doesn't require an employer to provide that)

    Again, we're not property. Your employer only has a complaint if you are breaching your contract of employment. Employees on the other hand can complain if their employer breaches the contract of employment or about the contract of employment itself. - Not really. It cant compel you to break the law obviously. But basically if you don't like it, you can be dismissed. (for no reason in the first two years) and subsequently by policy.

    As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member. - As far as I'm aware, as long as the employee knows that they are monitored, you can have CCTV pointed anywhere you like.

    As for your last examples, having a cigarette or playing with your phone is not a basic need like going to the toilet is. A better comparison would be breaks for nourishment - which is another bodily need that arguably is easier to ignore than the need of going to the toilet. - the law says you are allowed a 20 minute break if you are working for six hours or longer. There is no mention of nourishment in this, though in reality that is what many people do in their break If the law recognises theres a right to a break for nourishment, why do you think it would say there isn't a right to use the toilets if needed? Keep in mind prisoner payouts for "slopping out". If having to pee in a bucket during certain hours breaches your rights and entitles you to compensation, I wouldn't quite be so confident that courts would rule theres nothing wrong with telling an employee "you cant pee between the hours of x & y".
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Prisoners are compelled to be there, you are not.
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