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  • FIRST POST
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 5:52 PM
    • 27Posts
    • 15Thanks
    LauraV
    IAS Appeal - help needed
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:52 PM
    IAS Appeal - help needed 11th Jul 17 at 5:52 PM
    Hi
    I am contemplating appealing my PCN through the IAS. Having read through a few threads I can see that many people think it is pointless so I wanted to find out from the experts whether I have a strong enough case and how I go about it?
    I received a PCN on 30/06/17 from Parking & Property Management ltd for not displaying a valid permit in a visitors bay. My main reason for appeal is because the location stated on the PCN is 15 miles from the actual location. When I put this forward to the IPC in my appeal they have told me that the location is not relevant due to the photographic evidence they have. Which I think is ridiculous.


    Also there is also much speculation regarding the appointment of the IPC by the management company and the terms of our lease. As far as I can see there are only a few sections in the original lease, regarding parking, for the property and I cant seem to find anything in my purchase paperwork regarding a change to the lease... however this is much to advance for me to try and battle.
    (Schedule 3.1 - The right for the leaseholder and all persons authorised by the leaseholder (in common with other person entitled to the like right) at all times to use the common parts for all purposes incidental to the occupation and enjoyment of the premises and the visitors parking space (but not further or otherwise).)
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 5:53 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:53 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:53 PM
    Please add this to your existing thread and not a new one. It's confusing to have several threads on the go about one case!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    I wanted to delete my previous thread and focus on this however I couldn't do it
    • waamo
    • By waamo 11th Jul 17, 5:57 PM
    • 1,696 Posts
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    waamo
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:57 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:57 PM
    On paper you have a watertight case. Wrong location should be a winner, however an appeal will be heard by Skippy the bush kangaroo.

    You could have the Pope and 3 angels as witnesses but Skippy would claim they aren't reliable and question their honesty.

    Which parking company is this. You mention IPC but they aren't a parking company.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 5:58 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:58 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:58 PM
    Then we need this one to have your first post info:

    I received a PCN on 30/06/17 from Parking & Property Management ltd for not displaying a valid permit.
    As I had arrived home from work with numerous bags to carry I did forget to display the permit. When I remembered around 45 minutes later I rushed down to my car to find the PCN, however the location is incorrect. Believing that I had grounds for appeal I completed their appeal form on their website. I did do some research online and this is what I put:
    'I wish to formally challenge the above PCN.
    The PCN states that the vehicle was parked in ‘****’. The car in question was never parked in the stated location at the mentioned time or date. Therefore the contravention did not occur.'
    Today I received their judgement, which of course they have refused my appeal. They stated that due to the photographic evidence they have that the location on the PCN was not relevant.
    Being a complete novice to this I have most probably made errors in my process but wondered whether I had grounds to take it to the IAS?
    I think you SHOULD try IAS if the location is totally wrong on the PCN.

    It is simple in my mind and they will struggle with their prima facie 'evidence'. Photos do not prove a location.

    We all know IAS is crap and not fit for consumer use, but unusual cases like this are worth a try.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 5:59 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:59 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:59 PM
    Sorry by IPC I meant independent parking company. The parking company is Parking & Property Management Ltd.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 11th Jul 17, 6:01 PM
    • 1,696 Posts
    • 2,006 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:01 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:01 PM
    Then we need this one to have your first post info:



    I think you SHOULD try IAS if the location is totally wrong on the PCN.

    It is simple in my mind and they will struggle with their prima facie 'evidence'. Photos do not prove a location.

    We all know IAS is crap and not fit for consumer use, but unusual cases like this are worth a try.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Just seen there is a thread about this. I agree an appeal to the IAS with a good case may discourage a court case. Skippys reasoning is sometimes so outragous they would rather a judge didn't see it.
    This space for hire.
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    Would anyone be able to help me with a 'good' case?!
    I want to be able to "give them both barrels" as they say and know I won't be able to on my own.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 6:16 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:16 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:16 PM
    We can't write it from scratch - only you can. We will then help amend your draft.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 6:26 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Ok. I am trying to look for some evidence, from the code of practice they follow, to state my claim however I can't seem to find anything in the IPC code of practice. There is however points in the BPA code of practice. How's best to fight this if I haven't got anything to back it up?
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 7:57 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Here is my draft letter to IAS, eager to here your thoughts.
    Could you also help with the best way to round it up?

    Appeal regarding Parking Charge Notice number XXX

    To whom it may concern:

    I am the registered keeper of vehicle XXX

    I am in receipt of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) from Parking & Property Management Ltd (PPM) with the above reference number

    I have responded to this notice and PPM have ‘denied my appeal’ on 9th July and informed me to contact the IPC.



    I therefore would like appeal this notice on the following points:




    • Notice to Driver not compliant with Part C of the IPC Code of Practice (COP):
      Specifically the Notice to Driver fails to comply with section 2.1 (c) Specify the vehicle and the land on which it was parked. The location stated on the Notice to Driver does not refer to the land in which the vehicle was actually parked. Although PPM claim that the photographs supplied ‘support the issue of the parking charge’ this is in fact not the case. The photographs can only support the case if they prove the land on which the vehicle was parked. These photographs CANNOT prove where the car was parked when the locations are 15 miles apart.
    • Site Signage not compliant with Schedule 1 of the IPC Code of Practice (COP):


        1. The image of the site sign supplied by PPM fails to comply with point (1) of the ‘Other Signage’ section of Schedule 1; specifically it fails use the required language to identify PPM as ‘the creditor’.
        2. The site sign fails to comply with point (4) of the ‘Other Signage’ section of Schedule 1; specifically it fails to contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relative position of the person who it is aimed at considering the sign is fixed to a post at a height of 2.1 metres at the lowest point.


    • The level of charge is extravagant and unconscionable and it not a genuine pre estimate of loss.
    • The Charge is Not a Contractual Fee – it is in fact a disguised breach.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 9:42 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Remove this completely, it has no legs since the Beavis case:
    The level of charge is extravagant and unconscionable and it not a genuine pre estimate of loss.
    The Charge is Not a Contractual Fee – it is in fact a disguised breach.

    And re the signs:
    The image of the site sign supplied by PPM
    Is that image of the right place or the wrong place? Say so, if it is an image of the wrong place.

    I think you need to provide three Google Maps links as evidence, one showing the wrong location and one showing the right one, and a third one showing the fact these two locations are 15 miles apart (by doing a 'get directions' maps search, perhaps).

    State that the NTD was 'not properly given' and the operator will not be able to set out a 'prima facie case', due to the fatal error of the location being stated as another place, 15 miles away.

    With the IAS they expect the driver to prove every single word you say or they will reply that ''the appellant said this but failed to prove it'' so they don't believe you, and prefer their beloved AOS member's lack of evidence.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-07-2017 at 9:45 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 9:49 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Brilliant Coupon-mad
    The picture is from the location where the car was actually parked so in theory the right location. Do you think I should provide links to the maps or screen shots?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 9:52 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Screenshots are much better, if you can upload a PDF document in the IAS appeal webpage.

    Last time I used it (over a year ago) it was restrictive and you could not copy & paste wording in nor upload stuff, you could just type things in...but I think it did allow attachments.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 10:00 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Great I'm just creating the PDFs now. Do I want to admit to the actual location of the vehicle?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 10:09 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would, because if you win the IAS appeal the PCN has to be cancelled and can't be re-issued. If you lose the IAS appeal they still have a useless PCN and lack of evidence for court, if they ever try.

    Also, I think you can't do this without saying where the car really was.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 10:15 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Ok that's all done. I've also created a document with PPMs picture of the car on location against street view pictures of the recorded location.
    How do you think I should finish the letter?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 10:24 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If you haven't already, use these words:

    state that the NTD was 'not properly given' and the operator will not be able to set out a 'prima facie case', due to the fatal error of the location being stated as another place, 15 miles away.
    Oh, and I would possibly upload (or embed into your appeal) a scan of their embarrassing letter protesting that ''the location is irrelevant'' so they can't pretend none of this happened and you are making the location issue up.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 11th Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    So I have put:

    Although PPM claim, in their appeal rejection letter, 'the location of the PCN is not relevant' and that the photographs supplied 'support the issue of the parking charge', this is not the case

    And to finish the letter:

    As you can see from the above points this PCN was invalidly given and PPM will be unable to set out a prima facie case due to the fatal error of the location being stated as another place, 15 miles away.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 17, 10:37 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Go for it, worth a try in your case. If you lose, so what, back to square one. Still do not pay!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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