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  • FIRST POST
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 11th Jul 17, 5:51 PM
    • 12Posts
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    Randombloke
    Council tax CCJ - help required
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 17, 5:51 PM
    Council tax CCJ - help required 11th Jul 17 at 5:51 PM
    Hi all
    I've recently discovered that I have a CCJ registered against me relating to council tax and wonder if there's anything I can do to get this removed from the credit reference agencies files.

    Essentially, I struggled for years to pay my council tax and as I'm very effective at playing bailiff companys at their own game, I had built up a number of years worth of arrears that the council were unable to collect. Things came to a head last year when the council decided to get a charging order for the amount owed registered against my property, which they did via the local county court. That all fine, and was expected, and is a good result for me as I don't have to immediately find the money.

    The problem is, registry trust shows the CCJ and its therefore been picked up by the credit reference agencies (equifax, callcredit, experian). There's lots of info out there that says council tax shouldnt be listed on credit reference files, but I guess this is a fairly unusual case.

    Any advice as to how I might go about getting the agencies to remove it from their records?

    thanks in advance for any help or advice!
    Last edited by Randombloke; 11-07-2017 at 5:54 PM. Reason: additional info added
Page 1
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 11th Jul 17, 6:02 PM
    • 933 Posts
    • 2,047 Thanks
    IAmWales
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:02 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:02 PM
    Hi all
    I've recently discovered that I have a CCJ registered against me relating to council tax and wonder if there's anything I can do to get this removed from the credit reference agencies files.

    Essentially, I struggled for years to pay my council tax and as I'm very effective at playing bailiff companys at their own game, I had built up a number of years worth of arrears that the council were unable to collect. Things came to a head last year when the council decided to get a charging order for the amount owed registered against my property, which they did via the local county court. That all fine, and was expected, and is a good result for me as I don't have to immediately find the money.

    The problem is, registry trust shows the CCJ and its therefore been picked up by the credit reference agencies (equifax, callcredit, experian). There's lots of info out there that says council tax shouldnt be listed on credit reference files, but I guess this is a fairly unusual case.

    Any advice as to how I might go about getting the agencies to remove it from their records?

    thanks in advance for any help or advice!
    Originally posted by Randombloke
    You have a CCJ and a charging order against your property. That suggests your effectiveness at avoiding your debts is pretty useless.
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 11th Jul 17, 6:04 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:04 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:04 PM
    Hi all
    I've recently discovered that I have a CCJ registered against me relating to council tax and wonder if there's anything I can do to get this removed from the credit reference agencies files.

    Essentially, I struggled for years to pay my council tax and as I'm very effective at playing bailiff companys at their own game, I had built up a number of years worth of arrears that the council were unable to collect. Things came to a head last year when the council decided to get a charging order for the amount owed registered against my property, which they did via the local county court. That all fine, and was expected, and is a good result for me as I don't have to immediately find the money.

    The problem is, registry trust shows the CCJ and its therefore been picked up by the credit reference agencies (equifax, callcredit, experian). There's lots of info out there that says council tax shouldnt be listed on credit reference files, but I guess this is a fairly unusual case.

    Any advice as to how I might go about getting the agencies to remove it from their records?

    thanks in advance for any help or advice!
    Originally posted by Randombloke
    Starts off sounding like you genuinely couldn't pay..then straight away you gloat how good you are at Refusing to pay.

    Guess what...you obviously aint very effective at playing bailiff company at their own game as you would have known a charging order = CCJ.

    Maybe instead of trying to avoid Council tax...you know that horrible bill we all have to pay,and work out a way to pay it,pretty simple really.
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 11th Jul 17, 6:12 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    Randombloke
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:12 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:12 PM
    Wow! I certainly didn't expect those responses! Have you guys nothing better to do?

    To clarify, I've never refused to pay my council tax but fell on a couple of years of hard times and was unable to do so, and the council chose to continue to try and collect using private bailiff companies who I managed to keep at arms length. I still owe the council the money, and I'm still paying it, with interest, but charging order means council now have security over the debt.

    If there's anyone out there less vitriolic and judgmental who may be able to answer my question in a constructive way, I'd be very grateful for your advice.
    • CIS
    • By CIS 11th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • 9,867 Posts
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    CIS
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    Are you sure the CCJ is for council tax ? Have you checked who it was granted by ?

    As I understand it only the CCJ itself is recorded on the credit file, not the charging order itself.

    To get a charging order for council tax arrears the CCJ isn't needed as the liability order from the magistrates court allows the application to be made with the liability order in place of the CCJ.


    In cases where a CCJ has been granted and a charging order applied for in respect of a debt the CCJ would still stay on the credit records even if the charging order is in place. The CCJ is notification to people that a court judgement has been made, its a separate issue to the method of enforcement used and won't be removed just because of the charging order.

    Craig
    Last edited by CIS; 11-07-2017 at 6:33 PM.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 11th Jul 17, 6:43 PM
    • 907 Posts
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    Tarambor
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:43 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:43 PM
    OP you're lucky my brother wasn't dealing with you. His job in the council is dealing with people in council tax arrears and his department just successfully managed to get someone exactly like you who continually refused to pay their council tax and kept playing games sent to prison. The man got a 3 month sentence.

    You do know not paying your council tax is the one bill you can go to prison for for not paying?
    Last edited by Tarambor; 11-07-2017 at 6:46 PM.
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 11th Jul 17, 7:42 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 7:42 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 7:42 PM
    Tarambor,

    As I said in my earlier post, I've NEVER refused to pay my council tax, I fell upon a period of hardship and simply could not afford to pay. I refused to deal with the bailiffs who in my opinion are parasites, and very unpleasant people to deal with, often using bullying tactics and lying about their powers of recovery. I continued to pay the council at a rate I could afford to clear my arrears, and haven't fallen into further arrears. So for those wishing to tell me what a terrible person I am, you are wasting your time and mine, my conscience is clear. I simply asked a technical question about a technical matter relating to CCJ's.
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 11th Jul 17, 7:49 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 17, 7:49 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 17, 7:49 PM
    Craig
    Thanks for your reply.
    The CCJ is indeed for the council tax, applied for by the local authority and issued by my local county court. Its an Order for Recovery of award, where the council then went on to apply for a charging order - so the CCJ sort of relates to an interim step in reaching the charging order stage.
    My query is whether this can be ommited from my credit reference file as it relates to council tax, which normally doesn't appear on those records.
    • Edi81
    • By Edi81 11th Jul 17, 8:12 PM
    • 243 Posts
    • 131 Thanks
    Edi81
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 17, 8:12 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 17, 8:12 PM
    Perhaps if you don't want those types of responses from other posters you should give the full information in your initial post. You haven't painted yourself in the best light with your attituude.
    • worried jim
    • By worried jim 11th Jul 17, 8:16 PM
    • 8,293 Posts
    • 12,572 Thanks
    worried jim
    Sounds like an epic fail.
    "Only two things are infinite-the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe"
    Albert Einstein
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 11th Jul 17, 8:37 PM
    • 4,563 Posts
    • 9,182 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Tarambor,

    As I said in my earlier post, I've NEVER refused to pay my council tax, I fell upon a period of hardship and simply could not afford to pay. I refused to deal with the bailiffs who in my opinion are parasites, and very unpleasant people to deal with, often using bullying tactics and lying about their powers of recovery. I continued to pay the council at a rate I could afford to clear my arrears, and haven't fallen into further arrears. So for those wishing to tell me what a terrible person I am, you are wasting your time and mine, my conscience is clear. I simply asked a technical question about a technical matter relating to CCJ's.
    Originally posted by Randombloke
    I have worked for various councils along the way.

    All of which will work with people who will work with them, whether thats £5 a month or £500 a month.

    The fact they got a CCJ means that for a period of time you did refuse to pay and did refuse to keep up with your payment plans.
    Survey Earnings 2017 - £163
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 11th Jul 17, 9:54 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    Gah.

    Edi81 - I don't have 'attitude', my first post asked a question that was fairly succinct, I find myself 'defending myself' against all kinds of nonsense thereafter;

    worried jim -not an epic fail, I shan't be cowed by having had past financial problems, that's life! I accept my circumstance, am paying my dues, I'm not looking to get rid of the CCJ, just querying if it should appear on my credit reference, it being a council tax issue;

    marliepanda - you assume circumstances that are not correct. I'm sure if id ever 'refused' to pay, the council would have had me at a committal hearing, not apply for a charging order.

    I thought this forum would be really helpful. Good job there are people like CIS out there to balance out all those who just want to try and score a cheap point and stick the knife in. Good luck to you all, I'll not waste any more of our time asking questions here if its just a shooting gallery..
    • CIS
    • By CIS 12th Jul 17, 12:23 AM
    • 9,867 Posts
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    CIS
    I'm still not convinced it's council tax - in over a decade of working with recovery action it's not something I've ever come across. Council Tax recovery has a very specific recovery process in which the magistrates court deals with it and issues the liability order. The liability order in place of a CCJ but still allows applications for a charging order to be made without having to go for a CCJ. (CP Rules 73.2)

    An "Order for Recovery of award" is the result of an application made using form N322 - this is usually used for housing benefit overpayments, not council tax itself. It may be possible it was used for an award of council tax benefit if the local authority in question didn't take the option of recovering via an adjusted council tax bill - it was an option for them to recover via the county court but I've never known any local authority do that as it would be a far more complicated route.

    I would recommend that you speak with the council and clarify exactly what has happened with the application.

    Craig
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 12th Jul 17, 1:19 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    thanks Craig.

    Its definitely council tax, it feels to me like they've not correctly processed it - as you rightly say, they had a liability order so could have gone straight to a charging order, but theyve chosen this route. Ill speak to them and see if I can get to the bottom of it.

    cheers
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 12th Jul 17, 11:28 AM
    • 953 Posts
    • 644 Thanks
    rtho782
    If they have a CCJ they have a CCJ. It might be that they didn't need to go for a CCJ to get a charging order, but that doesn't mean they can't go that way.

    The judgement is valid and has been granted, so not much you can do.
    Deposit Saved since 01/12/15: £13,000 / £15,000 House Bought!

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    • CIS
    • By CIS 12th Jul 17, 12:16 PM
    • 9,867 Posts
    • 5,638 Thanks
    CIS
    If they have a CCJ they have a CCJ. It might be that they didn't need to go for a CCJ to get a charging order, but that doesn't mean they can't go that way.

    The judgement is valid and has been granted, so not much you can do.
    Originally posted by rtho782
    Some debts can only be pursued by specific routes and that may not involve a CCJ application, in those cases the CCJ application would be an error if it occurred.

    Craig
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
  • National Debtline
    Hi Randombloke

    I agree with CIS on this one, the council would not apply for a CCJ to recover council tax. If it is in fact an N322 Order for Recovery of an Award this would suggest it was a benefit overpayment.

    However Experian confirm that a council tax debt will not appear on your credit file because councils do not share that information with the credit reference agencies and court action is taken via the magistrates’ court http://www.experian.co.uk/consumer/questions/askjames226.html. An order for recovery is not a CCJ and therefore won’t be recorded on the Registry Trust, which is where the credit reference agencies get their information about who has a CCJ.

    It’s also worth noting a liability order is sufficient for the council to obtain a charging order for council tax (they do not require a CCJ to be made first). If you are sure it is the council who obtained the order contact them for more information about the debt. You may also want to raise the issue with the credit reference agency. Good luck getting the matter resolved.

    Susie
    @natdebtline
    We work as money advisers for National Debtline and have specific permission from MSE to post to try to help those in debt. Read more information on National Debtline in MSE's Debt Problems: What to do and where to get help guide. If you find you're struggling with debt and need further help try our online advice tool My Money Steps
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 13th Jul 17, 12:14 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    Hi Susie

    I fully understand what you and CIS are saying, but this is definitely council tax, I've never claimed any benefits whatsover so there is no possibility of overpayment.

    I don't want to post the Order up here, but the gist of it is this:

    The paperwork I received was an N322 Order for Recovery of Award. This came out of the blue, there had been no summons or other notification of any action or hearing.

    Ill take out some details, but essentially it reads that the court considered 'the application' and 'the award made to xxx council by xxx magistrates court' (which is the liability order)
    'And the court orders that
    1. the applicant may enforce the award in this court
    2. the respondant pays the applicants costs
    3. the amount enforceable is £xxx'

    In 'notes to respondent' it says the order means that goods may be removed or sold or other enforcement action may be taken against me and the applicant may be entitled to interest.(which is essentially the charging order).

    At the time I received it, I rang the council and was told it was in connection with a charging order, and subsequently I received notice from HM Land Registry that the council had applied for a charging order for the amount. This HM registry notice states that 'the applicant claims to have the benefit of a charging order made by a court against your interest in this property' and further goes on to state terms of the restriction to be placed on the register, that the council have 'benefit of a final charging order made by the county court money claims centre' and then lists the reference of the N322 Order listed above!

    so my thoughts are:
    1. The council are proceeduraly incorrect in obtaining the charging order in this way;
    2. The court and HM Registry are proceeduraly incorrect as the N322 is not a 'final charging order made by the court';
    3. Registry Trust should not have record of the judgement listed, as an N322 order for recovery is not a CCJ that statute allows them to list;
    4. The credit reference agencies shouldn't list it either as its not a CCJ and its a Council tax debt.

    Can I make it clear again, I'm not trying to dodge this debt, and I am paying it, and will remove the charging order via means legal and moral once I've cleared the debt, but I don't see why my credit record should be affected by a CCJ that shouldn't be there.

    So the help I require is in knowing how to go about removing it from my credit records. Do I contact Registry Trust, or the reference agencies, or both? Where is the legislation I can cite that says what can and should be listed (ie CCJ's, not Orders for Recovery of award's)?

    thanks
    • Randombloke
    • By Randombloke 13th Jul 17, 12:50 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Randombloke
    Ive just done some more digging, and the N322 Order for recovery of award was only part of the judgement - under the same claim number, there is an interim charging award.

    so my remaining questions are:
    1. should Registry Trust should not have record of the judgement listed, as an interim charging order for concil tax
    2. should the credit reference agencies list it as its not a CCJ as such, and its a Council tax debt.

    Where is the legislation I can cite that says what can and should be listed (ie CCJ's, or charging orders)

    thanks
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 13th Jul 17, 1:04 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    I dont know what council your under but when i had several years on the sick my local council were reasonable..wouldn't say helpful but just about agreed to help.

    My water company hit me with a CCJ each year for 3 Years and that was all down to a faulty meter..so not even my fault lol

    Trouble is with your first post it reads as you managed to avoid the council tax and played the bailiffs.

    Maybe if you posted events like a time line that might help the more knowledgeable on here to understand how you arrived at the point you find yourself now.

    Just a thought and i hope you get it sorted out.
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