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  • FIRST POST
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 11th Jul 17, 11:07 AM
    • 36Posts
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    toblerone13
    POPLA -UNSUCCESSFUL - PCN from Premier Park - 7 minutes! - ZZPS
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 17, 11:07 AM
    POPLA -UNSUCCESSFUL - PCN from Premier Park - 7 minutes! - ZZPS 11th Jul 17 at 11:07 AM
    I have received a PCN because anon parked at Vets 4 Pets without realising it wasn't the Tesco car park - Bitterne, Southampton. S/he was only there for 7 minutes. Can they really fine us £60, going up to £100, for this?

    Any advice much appreciated.
    Last edited by toblerone13; 18-11-2017 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Evidence submitted by PP
Page 3
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 13th Sep 17, 8:51 AM
    • 36 Posts
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    toblerone13
    Operator Case Summary

    The Appellants vehicle entered the site at 11:52 and exited at 11:59.

    We are unable to trace that the Appellants vehicle was registered within the practice or has ever been registered.

    The Appellant has been unable to provide any evidence that the driver was a customer at Vets 4 Pets.

    When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car park, the driver should have reviewed the terms and conditions before deciding to park.

    13 Grace periods – according to the British Parking Association Code of Practice
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

    If the motorist remains in the car park for a period longer than is “reasonable” for the purposes of Section 13.2, we would consider this parking also.

    This location has been assessed in view of the size of the car park, the number of spaces and the vicinity of the business it is attached to. All of this can be seen in the picture evidence provided within the pack. The signage does state that the parking period commences on entry however, we do allow a 5 minute grace period. The grace period has therefore been assessed on these points. 5 minutes is a more than reasonable grace period for a vehicle to enter, the vehicle to be parked and the motorist to enter the vet practice or to read the signage and decide whether to remain or leave.

    As the appellant remained on site for 7 minutes, we would consider this more than reasonable and class it as parking.

    Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that they comply with the terms and conditions of the car park.

    An unauthorised entry / parking occurred and a Parking Charge Notice was issued.

    It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have read and parked in compliance with the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the Appellant did not.

    We request that the Appellant's appeal be refused.

    With regards to the appellant’s remarks that the parking charge notice is punitive and unreasonable and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss, we refer you to the recent Supreme Court decision dated 4th November 2015, Parking Eye Ltd-v-Mr Barry Beavis. Details on the case be found at https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html. This case was seen as an important ‘test case’ due to the complex legal arguments used by both sides. The ruling sets a legally binding precedent on all similar cases for the whole of the United Kingdom.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Sep 17, 10:28 AM
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    Umkomaas
    You need to point out that there is a mandatory 'minimum of 10 minutes' allowed to exit the car park, also provided for by the BPA Code of Practice which they have conveniently failed to add in their quote. So just for completeness:

    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    Remind POPLA of that!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Sep 17, 10:25 PM
    • 293 Posts
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    claxtome
    Umkomaas can I just confirm the understanding of the wording quoted below from bpa code of practice->

    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    Does that apply even if you haven't bought a ticket?
    I.e. thought you only agreed to the contract if you bought the ticket - if you know what I mean.

    (I am asking this as hopefully help this thread and myself who has a similar 'grace period' and decided to leave after 5 1/2 mins)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Sep 17, 10:36 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Umkomass can I just confirm the understanding of the wording quoted below from bpa code of practice->
    I can only read it as you do, but:

    Does it say anything in the BPA CoP about buying a ticket? What about free car parks, you can't buy a ticket there, but you're lead to believe that you accept the contract once you've parked the car, read the signage (contract) and decided to stay.

    But never lose sight of the fact that this is an unregulated industry where PPCs will twist anything to get their hands on your money and, judging by performance over the past 9 months or so, will be backed by their trade association - the BPA!

    All you can go by is the Code of Practice which the judges at the Supreme Court said was 'effectively binding' on PPCs. The BPA has never refuted this assertion, despite weasel words.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 18th Sep 17, 10:50 AM
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    toblerone13
    My rebuttal draft.
    Dear POPLA Assessor,

    Ref. POPLA appeal

    In response to the "evidence pack" Premier Park have submitted, I have written my reply in the same order Premier Park has laid out their response. In making their assessment I ask the POPLA assessor to consider the following in further support of my original POPLA appeal as submitted on xx/xx/2017.

    1) Grace Periods

    Premier Park should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the car park as per the BPA code of practice section 13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes; not the 5 minutes that they have deemed reasonable.


    2) Inadequate Signage

    The section ‘No stopping or waiting. If you cannot register for any reason do not park’ on the car park signage cannot be read from a car. The driver must get out and get close to the sign to be able to read it. The photos in the evidence pack provided by Premier Park show how you cannot read the terms and conditions of the signs unless you are really close, which is why the driver should be allowed the previously mentioned BPA recommended grace period to approach the sign, read and make a decision on parking.


    I respectfully request that the appeal be upheld.

    Yours Faithfully,
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 18th Sep 17, 1:00 PM
    • 36 Posts
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    toblerone13
    I have to submit today, so if anyone has any comments I would be really grateful!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Sep 17, 7:05 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Looks fine.

    If POPLA reject the appeal (and that would be ludicrous) then this would be practically impossible for Premier Park to win at a real hearing. Their evidence is dire, the grace period not adequate and the ticketing in this case is predatory and exactly the sort of issue that gave rise to the BPA CoP rules on Grace Periods.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 20th Sep 17, 11:21 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I've been unsuccessful. So disappointed.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 20th Sep 17, 11:28 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    DecisionUnsuccessful
    Assessor NameMatthew Yorke
    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that it issued a parking charge notice because the driver was not authorised to park.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant’s case is that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 and as such, no keeper liability can be established. The appellant says that the operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver. The appellant says that there is inadequate and unclear signage. The appellant has made comments on Appendix B of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. The appellant says that the entrance sign to the car park is only small. Therefore, the driver must enter the car park to read the additional signage. The appellant states that the signs are small and the information is not legible from a driver’s seat. The appellant says that the operator have not allowed a grace period for the driver to read the signs. The appellant states that the operator has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue ticket or pursue charges.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site will set out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car park, a motorist should review the terms and conditions before deciding to park. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage at the site that states, “Vets4Pets Customers Only: Non Vets4Pets customers parked on this car park will receive a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE: No stopping or waiting. If you cannot register for any reason do not park: If you enter or park on this land contravening the terms and conditions displayed, you are agreeing to pay: Parking Charge Notice (PCN) £100.” The operator’s case is that it issued a parking charge notice because the driver was not authorised to park. The site operates using an Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) system. The cameras captured the driver’s vehicle registration, RE61 LJK, entering the site at 11:52, and exiting at 11:59. The total period of stay was seven minutes. The appellant’s case is that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was not compliant with PoFA 2012 and as such, no keeper liability can be established. After reviewing the evidence provided by both parties, I am not satisfied that the appellant has been identified as the driver of the vehicle in question at the time of the relevant parking event. The operator is therefore pursuing the appellant as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle in this instance. For the operator to transfer liability for unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle, to the registered keeper of the vehicle, the regulations laid out in PoFA 2012 must be adhered to. Having reviewed the evidence provided by the operator, I am satisfied that the Notice to Keeper is compliant with the requirements of PoFA 2012. Therefore, the operator is able to transfer the liability onto the keeper. I acknowledge the appellant has raised multiple issues with the NtK, which I will now respond to. The appellant has made comments that the NtK did not state the creditor did not know both the name of the driver and a current serviceable address. They further say that the NtK does not invite the keeper to pay the charges or if the keeper was not the driver to notify the creditor of the name and address of the driver and to pass the notice onto the driver. I have reviewed the NtK and I can see that it asks the keeper to provide the full name and current serviceable address of the driver so that the operator can address the request to them. I am satisfied that this is the operator stating that it does not know the name and address of the driver. I can see that the NtK has the details of how to make a payment on it. I am satisfied that this is the operator inviting the keeper to pay the charges. I acknowledge that the NtK does not advise the keeper to pass it to the driver, however I am satisfied that this does not affect the NtK being compliant with PoFA 2012. The appellant has made further comments in relation to the timescale of when keeper liability can be incurred. Upon reviewing the NtK I can see that it states, “If within 29 days we have not received full payment or driver details, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, we have the right, subject to the requirements of the Act, to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the keeper of the vehicle.” Section 6 of PoFA 2012 states, “A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.” The timescales set out within PoFA 2012 are based on the given date. A registered keeper has 29 days from the given date to either pay or provide driver details in order to prevent liability from transferring to them. As the appellant will not be able to read the NtK from the operator until the notice is given, the reference to within 29 days relates to the given date. I am therefore satisfied, that this wording is compliant with PoFA 2012. The appellant says that the operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver. I am satisfied that this does not have an effect on my decision as the operator has issued a compliant NtK. Therefore, the operator has transferred the liability onto the appellant as the registered keeper. The appellant says that there is inadequate and unclear signage. The appellant has made comments on Appendix B of the BPA Code of Practice. The appellant says that the entrance sign to the car park is only small. Therefore, the driver must enter the car park to read the additional signage. The appellant states that the signs are small and the information is not legible from a driver’s seat. The operator has provided images of the signage at the site, along with a site plan for the car park. The BPA Code of Practice, section 18.2 states, “Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of”. Furthermore, it goes on to state in section 18.3 “Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand”. In response to the appellant’s comments in relation to Appendix B of the BPA Code of Practice, this does not have an effect on my decisions. .This is because upon reviewing the ANPR camera evidence, I can see that the driver entered the site in daylight. I am satisfied from the evidence provided that the signage at the site meets the requirements of the BPA Code of Practice and that the driver of the vehicle had sufficient opportunity to familiarise themselves with the terms and conditions. The appellant says that the operator have not allowed a grace period for the driver to read the signs. Section 13.2 of the BPA Code of Practice states “You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action”. The operator has provided a site map showing the layout of the site. From this, I can see that the car park is reasonably small with six signs placed at the entrance and throughout the site detailing the terms and conditions. Therefore, I am not satisfied that it would take the driver seven minutes to enter the site and read the terms and conditions to decide they were not authorised to park and leave the site. The appellant states that the operator has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue ticket or pursue charges. Section 7.1 of the BPA Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. As such, I must consider whether the operator has met the requirements of this section of the BPA Code of Practice. The operator has provided a copy of the contract that they have with the landowner. Upon reviewing this, I am satisfied that it complies with the BPA Code of Practice and therefore the operator had the authority to issue PCNs on the day in question. Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that they comply with the terms and conditions of the car park. POPLA’s role is to assess if the operator has issued the parking charge notice in accordance with the conditions of the contract. In this case, as the appellant’s vehicle has been on site without being a customer of Vets4Pets, the terms and conditions of the car park have not been met. I conclude that the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 20th Sep 17, 11:36 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    Wow

    Awful, awful decision

    Firstly this stupid WRONG line "As the appellant will not be able to read the NtK from the operator until the notice is given, the reference to within 29 days relates to the given date. " They were slapped hard about this. They know this is wrong, and have admitted it in the past

    USELESS assessor

    Secondly 7 minutes grace is too much? That isnt their decision to make.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Sep 17, 12:24 PM
    • 15,574 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Needs a letter to John Gallagher, Lead Assessor, about maladministration. Wait for other outraged regulars to come with their views so that a comprehensive document can be developed.

    Therefore, I am not satisfied that it would take the driver seven minutes to enter the site and read the terms and conditions to decide they were not authorised to park and leave the site.
    What objective criteria did he actually use to arrive at this? Would 6 minutes have been OK? How about 5 minutes?

    And what about the mandatory minimum of 10 minutes grace period to leave the site? Did you build this into your appeal as I advised in post #42?

    I acknowledge that the NtK does not advise the keeper to pass it to the driver, however I am satisfied that this does not affect the NtK being compliant with PoFA 2012.
    So POPLA now has authority to interpret an Act of Parliament? And why was it interpreted in favour of the PPC and not the consumer?

    I'm sure others will be along before the day is out.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 20th Sep 17, 12:31 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    Umkomaas,

    Yep, I put the "13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes; not the 5 minutes that they have deemed reasonable. " into my rebuttal.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 20th Sep 17, 12:35 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I've had a look but can't see one in the Newbies sticky... is there a draft for a letter? Do many people write to John Gallagher?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 20th Sep 17, 12:42 PM
    • 887 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    There is of course no template
    Start drafting it - youve been given points already.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 20th Sep 17, 12:43 PM
    • 6,353 Posts
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    beamerguy
    When will John Gallagher start training his staff properly
    as right now such assessors are making POPLA look plain stupid
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Sep 17, 11:21 PM
    • 51,582 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    When I typed this, two days ago:

    If POPLA reject the appeal (and that would be ludicrous) then this would be practically impossible for Premier Park to win at a real hearing. Their evidence is dire, the grace period not adequate and the ticketing in this case is predatory and exactly the sort of issue that gave rise to the BPA CoP rules on Grace Periods.
    it was partly because I suspected POPLA might reject the decent appeal made.

    Because John Gallagher himself is the person who arbitrarily decided (obviously wrongly...come on man, it's a prescribed Government statute, as the previous POPLA Assessor team - legally trained, fair people - knew!) that the Premier Park 'within 29 days' could be interpreted BY HIM as compliant.

    There was a shocking decision on pepipoo forum where his reply to a complaint actually said he knew that ambiguity had to the determined in the way that most favours a consumer, but he reckoned he had done that - by interpreting the PP NTK as compliant, and in doing so (wrongly), making the consumer lose. Yep, that was apparently interpreting the PP crap in the way that most favoured the appellant in that case...

    Sometimes, and usually with Premier Park or ParkingEye cases, this POPLA *service* is diabolical.

    A complaint to Mr Gallagher who seems to love ex-clamper nasties, Premier Park, is going to be fruitless. Wait and see if a court claim is tried. This is defendable.

    As we've all said, including the OP, six or seven minutes all told from driving in to driving out is not a parking contract agreed, it's leaving within a perfectly reasonable observation/reading the signs then deciding NOT to accept any parking contract 'grace period'.

    How else does POPLA think the BPA grace periods apply then? This is what they were written to stop (kind of, if you trust the BPA motives...). The rules were written to create a veil of legitimacy at least, and POPLA should be applying those rules properly.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-09-2017 at 12:16 PM.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 21st Sep 17, 11:26 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    Thank you so much to everyone. I really appreciate you all taking the time to read, reply and give your opinions and advice. So, I am going to be brave (feels like I'm going to be taken to court and ordered to pay court fees etc. - is this the case??) and wait to see what they send me.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 21st Sep 17, 11:30 AM
    • 33,318 Posts
    • 17,241 Thanks
    Quentin
    They have 6 years to start legal proceedings


    As advised now wait and see if they try (ignore any debt collecting letters you get)


    You only have to go to court if this ends up with a hearing, and won't have any fees to pay unless you lose in court
    • Castle
    • By Castle 21st Sep 17, 5:39 PM
    • 1,302 Posts
    • 1,690 Thanks
    Castle
    POPLA showing their inconsistency; in this assessment, 10 minutes was deemed to be a reasonable grace period!:-
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5693951&page=2
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 22nd Sep 17, 10:20 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I know I'm probably coming across quite whiney but... how often do they take ppl to court and get a hearing? And if that happens and I did lose, how much are court fees. I know they want me to be scared and thats why they win and ppl pay but it is all a bit scary!
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