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  • FIRST POST
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 11th Jul 17, 11:07 AM
    • 33Posts
    • 16Thanks
    toblerone13
    POPLA Appeal -UNSUCCESSFUL - PCN from Premier Park - 7 minutes!
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 17, 11:07 AM
    POPLA Appeal -UNSUCCESSFUL - PCN from Premier Park - 7 minutes! 11th Jul 17 at 11:07 AM
    I have received a PCN because anon parked at Vets 4 Pets without realising it wasn't the Tesco car park - Bitterne, Southampton. S/he was only there for 7 minutes. Can they really fine us £60, going up to £100, for this?

    Any advice much appreciated.
    Last edited by toblerone13; 20-09-2017 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Evidence submitted by PP
Page 2
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 9th Aug 17, 4:54 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    They have declined! :(
    We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to your vehicle for a breach of the advertised terms and conditions.

    We have considered your comments, and after examining all the evidence relating to the issuing of this PCN, we are satisfied that on this occasion the charge was issued correctly and must advise that your appeal has been denied, as the driver was not a Vets4Pets customer.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

    If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit www.pcnpayments.com

    You now have three options;

    1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the 14 day reduced amount of £60.00 by 23rd August 2017. Please note that after this time the PCN will revert to the original £100.00 charge. Payment can be made online at www.pcnpayments.com or you may send a cheque made payable to Premier Park Ltd.

    2. Make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeals Service, by completing the form which can be found at www.popla.co.uk or write to POPLA - PO BOX 1270, Warrington – WA4 9RL. You will require this unique POPLA verification code. If you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £60.00 and should POPLA’s decision not be found in your favour, you will be required to pay the full amount of £100.00. Your appeal to POPLA must be submitted within 28 days from the date of this email. For more information regarding making an appeal to POPLA, please visit www.popla.co.uk
    By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such, should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

    3. If you choose to take no action, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our Debt Recovery Service and this may result in proceeding with legal action against you or the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. Please note we will seek to recover all unpaid charges through the use of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 – Collection of Unpaid Parking Charges.
    Last edited by toblerone13; 10-08-2017 at 7:41 PM.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 9th Aug 17, 4:55 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    So now its time to write my POPLA appeal!
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 9th Aug 17, 5:33 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I don't feel very hopeful.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Aug 17, 5:35 PM
    • 15,526 Posts
    • 19,617 Thanks
    Redx
    read post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and draft a popla appeal and post it on here , after comparing it to other 2017 popla appeals, especiallyl those that were successful , so read the last few pages of the POPLA DECISIONS sticky thread too, to get inspiration and to copy from any good ones (there are plenty of PREMIER PARK threads on here)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 10th Aug 17, 6:14 AM
    • 510 Posts
    • 607 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Oh get over it. REjection was 99% likely.
    SHow us your draft. This is a forum to fight back agsint these scammers, take heart in how many are beaten every day!
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 10th Aug 17, 6:20 AM
    • 591 Posts
    • 904 Thanks
    catfunt
    and remove your popla code from your post!!!!!
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 22nd Aug 17, 11:40 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    POPLA appeal draft. Please help! I feel a little out of my depth.
    Appeal against Premier Park Ltd. Parking Charge Notice received

    POPLA code:
    Vehicle Registration:

    On the 06/07/2017, I, the registered keeper of this vehicle, received a letter dated 04/07/2017 acting as a notice to the registered keeper (Appendix A). I appealed to Premier Park as the registered keeper and received an email denying my appeal dated 09/08/2017. I contend that I, as the keeper, am not liable for the alleged parking charge and wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:

    1. The Notice to Keeper (NTK) was not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) and as such no keeper liability can be established.
    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge
    3. Inadequate and unclear signage
    4. No period of grace given for the driver to read the additional signs within the car park.
    5. Premier Park has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue tickets and pursue charges in their own name at court.

    1. The Notice to Keeper (NTK) was not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) and as such no keeper liability can be established.

    In order to rely upon POFA to hold a vehicle's keeper liable for unpaid parking charges, an operator must deliver a Notice to Keeper that fully complies with all of POFA’s strict requirements. I set out below a non-exhaustive list of reasons why Premier Park’s Notice to Keeper failed to do so.
    • Contrary to the requirements of Sch.4 Para 9 (2) (e), the Notice to Keeper did not state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper (i) to pay the unpaid parking charges; or (ii) if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver.

    Premier Park insinuates that they do not know the name or address of the driver through their request to the keeper to part with that information. ”If you were not the driver we ask you to supply the full name and current serviceable postal address of the driver so that we may address this request to them.” This however, is not a statement of lack of knowledge regarding the name and service address of the driver.
    While Premier Park does ask the keeper to pay the unpaid charges and supply a name and address for the driver, they do not ask them to pass on the notice to the driver.

    • Contrary to the requirements of Sch.4 Para 9 (2) (f) The notice to keeper does not

    "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
    (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
    (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
    the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid".


    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''

    3. Inadequate and unclear signage

    Furthermore, the BPA CoP (App. B) also states that "signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times." The sign at the entrance to this car park is small and only the 'welcome' and 'P' sign are visible from the road. Therefore, to be able to read the additional signs within the car park, the driver must enter the carpark.

    The signs inside the car park are small and the information is not legible from a driver's seat as they are on the left hand side of the car park. To be able to read the terms, the driver would need to stop the car, get out and read the information.


    So, in this case, the driver cannot possibly be fairly bound to be (somehow) already in breach of an alleged 'parking contract' that they didn't have knowledge even existed, having relied upon a visible 'P' and 'welcome' sign which - in the absence of other terms at the entrance - positively invites parking.

    On the balance of probabilities the actual time stopped to read the sign, then decide NOT to stay or be held by any 'contract' was a mere 3 or 4 minutes. This sort of 'immediate fine' entrapment is what the BPA mandatory 'Grace Periods' exist to avoid. The seven minutes is perfectly reasonable, for someone, in the rain, to get out of the car, read the signs, decide not to park and drive off.

    From the BPA CoP, version 6 2015.

    13 Grace periods

    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.


    5. That Premier Park has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue tickets and pursue charges in their own name at court.

    I do not believe that Premier Park has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, Premier Park must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land. Section 7.1 states:

    “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”.

    Section 7.3 states: “The written authorisation must also set out:

    a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I contend that Premier Park merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain signs and to post out 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require Premier Park to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner, in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits Premier Park to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.).
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 22nd Aug 17, 11:41 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    Any advice would be much appreciated. I'd love to get it sent off as soon as possible.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Aug 17, 4:25 PM
    • 50,173 Posts
    • 63,550 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think your signage point and grace periods are good, and you could win this one.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 23rd Aug 17, 12:49 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    What do I click on???
    I've clicked on 'I was not improperly parked' but then it asks me all these questions? Do I just say other or should I just have said other at the first step!?

    Please can someone who has submitted a POPLA appeal help?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 23rd Aug 17, 12:53 PM
    • 15,526 Posts
    • 19,617 Thanks
    Redx
    all explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread , by coupon mad herself

    and she also explained it in detail recently in one of her replies

    click on OTHER

    add text saying "see attached appeal"

    use the upload icon and choose your saved word doc or better still, saved pdf and upload it until the icon changes to a tiny bin icon

    add any other evidence at this stage too, by uploading any pics and witness statements

    submit it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 23rd Aug 17, 12:55 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I'm really sorry. I am reading the Newbies thread and reading the POPLA bit but can't see this info. Sorry for being a pain.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 23rd Aug 17, 12:58 PM
    • 15,526 Posts
    • 19,617 Thanks
    Redx
    read her comments in here too

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5632539&page=3

    what you need to realise is we get the same questions all the time , yet the answers to those common questions are already here

    I rarely see new info or a new question, neither does coupon mad

    good luck

    ps:- this is what it says in the NEWBIES thread that you missed

    These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/new-popla-process.html


    ****************************

    AFTER SUBMITTING YOUR POPLA APPEAL:


    please look again until you see it (and prankster posted that linked guide 2 years ago)
    Last edited by Redx; 23-08-2017 at 1:02 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 23rd Aug 17, 2:15 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    Submitted
    Once again, thank you for your help and sorry for repeating questions already covered by the Newbies section.

    I will update the thread when I hear.
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 23rd Aug 17, 2:16 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    Oh crap. I've just realised I didn't upload it as a pdf. I've uploaded as a word doc. I hope that won't affect my chances.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 17, 2:44 PM
    • 510 Posts
    • 607 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    It shouldnt do, but check with them that they could open it ok. Call, email, whatever works.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 23rd Aug 17, 4:09 PM
    • 15,526 Posts
    • 19,617 Thanks
    Redx
    Oh crap. I've just realised I didn't upload it as a pdf. I've uploaded as a word doc. I hope that won't affect my chances.
    Originally posted by toblerone13
    should be ok , as I did mention earlier a word doc or better still a pdf

    I would phone them and ensure that your word doc submission is ok , and at the same time offer to email a pdf version to an email address of their choice, if it would help ?

    have it saved as a pdf and ready to send to any email address they give you , then stay on the line and ensure they add it to your popla case

    but if a word doc is ok, then no need to worry , but then start reading this forum about REBUTTALS to any PPC evidence pack, which is when you get to comment on their evidence pack

    ie:- stay ahead of the game , prepare beforehand , do the research , and start a draft rebuttal based on other rebuttals here, then you can adapt it if or when you get the email from popla about their evidence pack
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Aug 17, 4:15 PM
    • 50,173 Posts
    • 63,550 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Oh crap. I've just realised I didn't upload it as a pdf. I've uploaded as a word doc. I hope that won't affect my chances.
    Originally posted by toblerone13
    How did you manage that, I don't think it's possible? Email POPLA with the PDF and explain. You have their email addy because they've just emailed you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 24th Aug 17, 9:12 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I phoned them and he said it would be fine. Got him to check he could open it and he could so now its just a waiting game!
    • toblerone13
    • By toblerone13 13th Sep 17, 8:48 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    toblerone13
    I have received a notice that Premier have submitted their evidence. Gonna post it on here and see if I should add anything.
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