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  • FIRST POST
    • woeestme
    • By woeestme 10th Jul 17, 3:57 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 0Thanks
    woeestme
    Penalty Charge for mistake on Dental claim form
    • #1
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:57 PM
    Penalty Charge for mistake on Dental claim form 10th Jul 17 at 3:57 PM
    Hello, I'm currently on ESA. I recently went to the dentist and thought I was eligible for subsidised treatment. I wasn't sure which ESA I was on and mistakenly put 'income based' on the form whereas I'm actually on 'contribution based ESA', which doesn't entitle me to NHS treatment.

    Anyway, in addition to the dental costs which I told them I would pay, the NHS Business Services Authority have given me a penalty charge of £100, which I'm not allowed to contest legally. If I don't pay it, it'll be left to a debt collection agency to chase me for the money.

    According to the NHS Business Services Authority, because I signed the declaration at the dentist, I'm not entitled to contest.

    On the letter it states this is a 'civil penalty' and that ignorance on the issue is not a defence.

    I'm guessing this is some sort of Tory/New Labour policy to extort money from those in the lowest level in society.

    I'm trying to understand what legal authority they have to impose this penalty on me? Somebody in the NHS Business Services Authority has decided this is a useful way of collecting money off people.

    Anyway, do I have any recourse here?
Page 2
    • bspm
    • By bspm 11th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    • 439 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    bspm
    Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance
    (Contribution-based does NOT count)

    This is what you ticked, you did not mistakenly put Income based you ticked the box above.

    I too received a fine in the post after a visit to the Dentist. Difference with our stories is I told the Receptionist I was on Contribution based and not eligible for free treatment but she informed me I was.

    I contacted the NHS and explained what had happened and they deducted the fine leaving only the dental charges to pay, ones I was more than happy to pay on my visit to Dentist.

    Might add that I informed my Dentist what had happened when I received a fine and they said that if the fine was still payable once I had explained to the NHS then they would pay it as they were unaware of the rules at the time (this was quite awhile ago) needless to say training was given to staff members to ensure this did not happen again.

    This is not the case with you, you ticked the box you pay the price.
    • woeestme
    • By woeestme 11th Jul 17, 2:37 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    woeestme
    Yes they do have the power to impose this, if you fail to pay you'll be taken to court.
    No it won't. It'll just go down on my credit record.

    Do you want me to start a discussion explaining in detail how the NHS is being defunded and defrauded?
    • Diary
    • By Diary 11th Jul 17, 2:43 PM
    • 573 Posts
    • 751 Thanks
    Diary
    No it won't. It'll just go down on my credit record.

    Do you want me to start a discussion explaining in detail how the NHS is being defunded and defrauded?
    Originally posted by woeestme
    Your opening post explains that very clearly.
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 11th Jul 17, 2:45 PM
    • 4,586 Posts
    • 6,005 Thanks
    spadoosh
    No it won't. It'll just go down on my credit record.

    Do you want me to start a discussion explaining in detail how the NHS is being defunded and defrauded?
    Originally posted by woeestme
    Ive got a short one for you.

    There once was a person called woeestme.
    Thought they could get dentistry free.

    They thought they knew better
    And are now a debtor

    Because after a time,
    They got a large fine.

    And now they are extremely unhappy.

    Don't be angry!
    • woeestme
    • By woeestme 11th Jul 17, 2:50 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    woeestme
    Ive got a short one for you.

    There once was a person called woeestme.
    Thought they could get dentistry free.

    They thought they knew better
    And are now a debtor

    Because after a time,
    They got a large fine.

    And now they are extremely unhappy.
    Wow! Such talent!
    • takman
    • By takman 11th Jul 17, 2:54 PM
    • 2,825 Posts
    • 2,360 Thanks
    takman
    Do you want me to start a discussion explaining in detail how the NHS is being defunded and defrauded?
    Originally posted by woeestme
    The bottom line is that the NHS Business Services Authority does not have a legal right to impose this penalty charge based on their manipulation of the legal person.
    Originally posted by woeestme
    So your able to explain in detail how the NHS is being "defunded and defrauded" and have in depth legal knowledge about the NHS BSA's legal right to impose penalty charges.

    Yes you don't even know if your on Income Based or Contribution Based ESA or what treatment your entitled to.

    I think you need to spend your time understanding what benefits your claiming and what your entitled to before you start researching NHS funding and Legal Rights.

    Hello, I'm currently on ESA. I recently went to the dentist and thought I was eligible for subsidised treatment. I wasn't sure which ESA I was on and mistakenly put 'income based' on the form whereas I'm actually on 'contribution based ESA', which doesn't entitle me to NHS treatment.
    Originally posted by woeestme
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 11th Jul 17, 3:00 PM
    • 15,118 Posts
    • 14,764 Thanks
    Guest101
    No it won't. It'll just go down on my credit record.

    Do you want me to start a discussion explaining in detail how the NHS is being defunded and defrauded?
    Originally posted by woeestme


    No no, they will. It goes to court, you get a fine and bailiffs come to seize your property.


    Given I work for the NHS and have no interest in your ramblings - no, I couldn't care less
    • woeestme
    • By woeestme 11th Jul 17, 3:27 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    woeestme
    No no, they will. It goes to court, you get a fine and bailiffs come to seize your property.
    No, the person at NHS Business Services Authority stated it would just go down as an unsettled debt on my credit record. No bailiffs, no extra fines.

    Anyway, this is a business plan by the NHS Business Services authority; they know full well people make this mistake on their dental records form and so if they impose an uncontestable penalty charge it guarantees a nice little earner for those who cooked up the scam.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 11th Jul 17, 3:35 PM
    • 15,118 Posts
    • 14,764 Thanks
    Guest101
    No, the person at NHS Business Services Authority stated it would just go down as an unsettled debt on my credit record. No bailiffs, no extra fines.

    Anyway, this is a business plan by the NHS Business Services authority; they know full well people make this mistake on their dental records form and so if they impose an uncontestable penalty charge it guarantees a nice little earner for those who cooked up the scam.
    Originally posted by woeestme
    1: they're wrong. Probably told you that because of your attitude.
    2: you are the scammer, not them.
    • nannytone
    • By nannytone 11th Jul 17, 3:37 PM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 18,145 Thanks
    nannytone
    people shouldn't make the mistake though.

    the onus has always been on the claimant to be aware of the rights and responsibilities regarding any claim they make.

    trying to blame someone else will never work, because it is the claimant that signs to declare that they are entitled
    • woeestme
    • By woeestme 11th Jul 17, 3:39 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    woeestme
    The money goes back into the NHS. No private company is involved in the process
    Are you seriously saying private companies are not involved in the provision of services in the NHS and dubious allocation of grants are given to these private companies?

    I just phoned them again and they informed me the money goes back into "the NHS frontline services", which is a euphemism for extra theft of tax money. See my post #23.

    I rest my case, gatekeepers! Good day!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 11th Jul 17, 3:54 PM
    • 15,118 Posts
    • 14,764 Thanks
    Guest101
    Are you seriously saying private companies are not involved in the provision of services in the NHS and dubious allocation of grants are given to these private companies?

    I just phoned them again and they informed me the money goes back into "the NHS frontline services", which is a euphemism for extra theft of tax money. See my post #23.

    I rest my case, gatekeepers! Good day!
    Originally posted by woeestme
    Private companies are pivotal to the running of the NHS - over 90% of GPs are privately employed.


    This penalty does not go directly to a private company. YOU are stealing from the taxpayer....
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 11th Jul 17, 4:14 PM
    • 15,275 Posts
    • 21,792 Thanks
    antrobus
    Private companies are pivotal to the running of the NHS - over 90% of GPs are privately employed. ...
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Privately self-employed you mean.

    As are most dentists as well.

    But then chunks of the NHS have always been delivered by private companies, pharmacies, opticians, and so forth.

    ..This penalty does not go directly to a private company. YOU are stealing from the taxpayer....
    Originally posted by Guest101
    And technically fraud. Which is a criminal offence. I don't know whether anyone has ever been done for falsely claiming a dental charge exemption (no one wants to go to the dentist).
    Last edited by antrobus; 11-07-2017 at 4:17 PM.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 11th Jul 17, 4:25 PM
    • 15,118 Posts
    • 14,764 Thanks
    Guest101
    Privately self-employed you mean. - well strictly speaking it's a mixed bag. Some GPs are employed directly by the surgery, on a contract and wage, others are partners and in essence self employed (sort of)

    As are most dentists as well. - indeed

    But then chunks of the NHS have always been delivered by private companies, pharmacies, opticians, and so forth. - ye but don't tell the OP



    And technically fraud. Which is a criminal offence. I don't know whether anyone has ever been done for falsely claiming a dental charge exemption (no one wants to go to the dentist).
    Originally posted by antrobus
    The courts would be too busy
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 11th Jul 17, 5:05 PM
    • 3,302 Posts
    • 4,794 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    Are you seriously saying private companies are not involved in the provision of services in the NHS and dubious allocation of grants are given to these private companies?

    I just phoned them again and they informed me the money goes back into "the NHS frontline services", which is a euphemism for extra theft of tax money. See my post #23.

    I rest my case, gatekeepers! Good day!
    Originally posted by woeestme
    Which you're quite happy to receive via benefits.

    Some people never cease to amaze me. Happy to take take take, but never give anything back, especially when the error was all their doing.
    • parkrunner
    • By parkrunner 11th Jul 17, 7:13 PM
    • 769 Posts
    • 1,135 Thanks
    parkrunner
    No, the person at NHS Business Services Authority stated it would just go down as an unsettled debt on my credit record. No bailiffs, no extra fines.

    Anyway, this is a business plan by the NHS Business Services authority; they know full well people make this mistake on their dental records form and so if they impose an uncontestable penalty charge it guarantees a nice little earner for those who cooked up the scam.
    Originally posted by woeestme
    Either you never spoke to them or they have given you duff information, because I can assure you people are taken to court for this.
    • jessex1990
    • By jessex1990 11th Jul 17, 9:40 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 75 Thanks
    jessex1990
    What is confusing about the terminology? They are very clear to me and the thousands of others who collect their prescriptions without a problem.

    The penalty does not "exploit" those on benefits, it punishes those that choose to avoid paying. Given how stretched the NHS is, this can only be a good thing.

    The money goes back into the NHS. No private company is involved in the process, assuming people pay up when they should.
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    It doesn't punish people on benefits it punishes those who falsely claim to be on a certain type of benefit to avoid paying it. Big difference

    Income based is means tested is for poor people and contribution based is for richer people who have paid enough national insurance. When you look at it that way it's quite obvious which type of ESA would have been eligible and which wouldn't.

    You made the false declaration, be grateful they are just fining you rather than locking you up for benefit fraud
    Last edited by jessex1990; 11-07-2017 at 9:47 PM.
    • Energize
    • By Energize 12th Jul 17, 12:42 AM
    • 334 Posts
    • 110 Thanks
    Energize
    No no, they will. It goes to court, you get a fine and bailiffs come to seize your property.


    Given I work for the NHS and have no interest in your ramblings - no, I couldn't care less
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Bailiffs can't force entry to a residential property though so the court is pretty impotent in this matter.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 12th Jul 17, 8:58 AM
    • 15,118 Posts
    • 14,764 Thanks
    Guest101
    They can seize property e.g. A vehicle and they can make peaceful entry e.g. Open door or window.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 12th Jul 17, 10:56 AM
    • 1,732 Posts
    • 2,603 Thanks
    dippy3103
    Just a thought. But would you qualify for free dental treatment on low income grounds? I'm sure you probably looked into this on account of knowing so much (other than if you are on ESA IB or C)
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