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    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 2:48 PM
    • 6Posts
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    gdsntmyjdg
    Unsuccessful POPLA Appeal
    • #1
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:48 PM
    Unsuccessful POPLA Appeal 10th Jul 17 at 2:48 PM
    Hello, I'm seeking some urgent advice please.
    On 12/06/2017 I submitted my appeal to POPLA regarding a PCN I'd received from the Civil Enforcement Ltd.
    From the moment I submitted the appeal it's been a nightmare.
    I've copied and pasted my email complaint to POPLA regarding their service on 04/07/2017:

    Dear Sir/Madam,
    I would like to issue a complaint regarding your service.
    I have attached an evidence pack as reference.
    On Monday 12th June 2017 at 11:50am I submitted an appeal and subsequently received an email confirming the submission of my appeal and details to track the status. (Annexed 1)
    As stated in your Annual Report 2016 page 7, the reasons for appeal are sent to the parking operator who is required to provide an evidence pack to POPLA and to the appellant within 21 days. If an operator does not provide an evidence pack within 21 days, we treat this as if the operator has not contested the appeal and write to both parties to confirm the appeal has been successful. (Annexed 2)
    The 21 days cut off time is Monday 3rd July 2017 11:49am.
    I received an email from Andreea Topor on Monday 3rd July 2017 at 16:13pm attaching the Operator’s evidence. (Annexed 3) The submission of the Operator’s evidence is past the 21 days allowed and I see this as a failure to keep to the rules of the appeal.
    Again, as stated in your Annual Report 2016 page 7, ‘if the operator decides to submit an evidence pack, we will notify the appellant that they have seven days to comment on the operator’s evidence pack. We allow 14 days if the appeal is being administered offline to allow for the carriage of post.’ (Annexed 4) I have been checking the status of the appeal over the past 21 days, including yesterday Monday 3rd July 2017 at 21:00pm, and the status was still ‘In Progress’ for ‘Operator Information and Evidence’. It was only this morning Tuesday 4th July 2017 at 10:00am that the status had changed to ‘Received’ for ‘Operator Information and Evidence’ and ‘In Progress’ for ‘POPLA Assessment’. I still have not received an email from POPLA officially confirming the submission of the Operator’s evidence, which would accordingly fall out of the 21 days allowed to provide evidence. This is again a disadvantage for me as I have not been notified of the status of the appeal.
    I would also point out as stated in your Annual report 2015 page 14, ‘if one party delays submitting original or additional evidence to POPLA until just before the scheduled date of determination, the Assessor may have to adjourn the matter for a short period in order for the other party can see the evidence and, should they wish, comment upon it. Operators should therefore ensure that their evidence is sent to POPLA and to the appellant in good time.’ (Annexed 5)
    In conclusion, there is no other way to see this than an unfair appeal which has not met the rules and guidelines permitted.


    POPLA replied on 06/07/2017 :

    Thank you for your email.
    I note you have raised concerns regarding our service.
    You have stated within your email that the operator has submitted the operator evidence after 21 day deadline. Please note the operator has 21 days, until close of play to submit their evidence. As such the operator has submitted their evidence within our timescales.
    You have also stated that you have not received notification from POPLA confirming the submission of the operator's evidence. Firstly please accept my apologies this was not sent. Due to an administrative system error the email did not send.
    In regards to this please find attached the operator's evidence. You now have a further seven days to provide comments on the operator's evidence, if you wish to do so. Please provide your comments by 13 July 2017.
    Please note that these comments must relate to the grounds of appeal you submitted when first lodging your appeal with POPLA, we do not accept new grounds of appeal at this stage.
    Any comments received after the period of seven days has ended will not be considered and we will progress your appeal for assessment.
    To do this, please log in via our website using the details provided to you when initially submitting your appeal.
    If you are unable to submit your comments via our website, please send your comments via email to info@popla.co.uk.


    My reply further to their email on 06/07/2017 and still waiting for a reply:

    Thank you for your email.
    I’m still not happy with this 21 days deadline because technically the operator has had more than 21 days and in fact had 21.5 days if you include the day I submitted the complaint. The operator were quick on the ball when it came to sending out the PCN and corresponding to my appeal when I sent it directly to them before appealing with POPLA. I know it sounds extremely picky but what I’m being charged for is also inequitable after explaining what actually happened and I’m not going to brush this under the carpet.
    I appreciate that the 7 days to provide my comments on the operator’s evidence starts today and not Monday when they decided to submit their evidence, rectifying your mistake.


    Moving on to the actual appeal and evidence submitted on 12/06/2017:

    I would like to appeal against the PCN sent to me for the following reasons.
    I did on Wednesday 10th May 2017 enter Overline House Carpark, Station Way, Crawley RH10 1JA at 12:08, as captured on camera, with the view of parking there and buying a ticket, whilst I wait for my partner to complete their theory test across the road.
    Upon parking my car I realised that it was pay via phone set up. I attempted to pay for a ticket using my mobile but was then made aware that I had no data/credit. I tried to FaceTime my partner to see if they could pay for the ticket using their phone instead, however I was unable to get hold of them as I did not realise I needed data to also contact them.
    I then left Overline House Carpark at approximately 12:17 and went to Asda Superstore, Pegler Way, Crawley RH10, to pass some time.
    At approximately 12:50 I received a phone call from my partner to pick them up from Overline House Carpark, to which I arrived at a few minutes later. I entered the carpark and my parter got inside my car and relayed their test results to me. The duration of my car being stationary was approximately a minute and I left the carpark at 12:58, as captured on your camera.
    What's concerning and alarming is that no record has been made of my car leaving and returning within the stated times of the PCN notice, and as a result I am now being penalised to pay a charge that is totally unjust and unacceptable.


    I then submitted further evidence after the Civil Enforcement submitted their evidence pack which showed I didn't pay for a ticket which I have already said is correct but are still ignoring the fact I attempted to pay and even left the car park and returned shortly after, sent on 06/07/2017 and still had no acknowledgement:

    I am writing to add further comments to the evidence pack provided by the operator in relation to the appeal I submitted.
    The evidence provided by the operator is not incorrect by showing I did not pay for a parking ticket, which is why the PCN was issued. However, they have not at any point taken on board what I have said when explaining why a ticket purchase was not made.
    As I have already stated to the Civil Enforcement Ltd and to POPLA when submitting the appeal, I did in fact attempt to pay for a ticket. Although, when doing this I discovered I had no further credit to make the call and attempted to call my partner via FaceTime which I was unware also needed credit or WiFi to call out, to ask if they could pay for the ticket. Unable to get hold of my partner, I then left the carpark and drove to Asda to kill some time as my partner was doing a DVLA theory test.
    I then returned to the Overline House carpark to pick up my partner at approximately 12:52pm and left the carpark at 12:58pm as confirmed by the ANPR camera.
    The alarming issue that I raised was the fact I left the carpark and returned less than an hour later, but I did NOT stay/overstay at the carpark, at any one time, for 50 minutes.
    I have since done some research on ANPR cameras and it would seem I am not the only person to fall victim to this type of electronic failure. Please refer to the following links as evidence: (cannot add due to being a new user)


    I then received an email today from POPLA to check the portal to see the outcome of the appeal which can be seen below:

    When entering onto a private car park, the motorist forms a contract with the operator by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore upon entry to the car park, it is the duty of the motorist to review the terms and conditions, and comply with them, when deciding to park. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage that states “Phone and pay. 50p per hour. £2.50 per day. Payment must be made within 10 minutes of arrival for these discounted rates. These parking conditions apply 24 hours a day. If you a) do not pay within 10 minutes if arrival: or b) overstay the purchased parking time, you agree to pay the standard fee of £100”. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the vehicle registration number, YK05 GAU, entering Overline House car park on 23 April 2017 at 12:08 on 10 May 2017 and exiting at 12:58, a total stay of 50 minutes. The operator states that it has issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) as the appellant had not purchased appropriate parking time. The operator has provided a system printout from the day in question which shows no record of a payment being made against the appellant’s vehicle. The appellant’s case is that on the day in question she entered the car park at 12:08 with a view to parking there and buying a ticket, whilst her partner completed their theory test. The appellant states that she realised she needed to pay by phone as the car park was not a pay and display, which she attempted to do, but realised she did not have enough credit/data. She then left the car park at 12:17. The appellant states that she returned to pick up her partner and left the car park at 12:58. The appellant states that the operator’s main focus is that she did not make payment and that there is no record of her car leaving and returning to the car park within the times specified on the PCN. The site operates Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras, which capture vehicles entering and exiting the site to calculate the time a vehicle has remained in the car park The British Parking Association (BPA) audits the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) systems in use by parking operators in order to ensure it is in good working order and the data collected is accurate. I note the appellant questions the ANPR evidence provided by the operator and states that she did not stay for the 50 minute period, however as no evidence has been provided to demonstrate otherwise, I will work on the basis that the technology is accurate. The operator has provided evidence of the appellant’s vehicle entering and exiting the car park. From this evidence, I am satisfied that the appellant’s vehicle entered and exited the site once on the day in question, once entering at 12:08, and once exiting 12:58. POPLA is an evidence based service, and I can only base decisions on the evidence provided. In this instance, while the appellant states that they visited the site twice, there is no evidence to support this. Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to comply with the terms and conditions of the car park. After reviewing the evidence, as the appellant did not purchase appropriate parking time, she did not adhere to the terms and conditions at the car park. As such, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly I must refuse this appeal.

    I would appreciate any help or advice on what to do next because it seems POPLA want to brush this under the carpet and ignore the fact that I'm innocent in all of this.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Jul 17, 2:59 PM
    • 16,540 Posts
    • 20,699 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:59 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:59 PM
    probably nothing you can do about POPLA or their decision

    however, it is not binding upon you (or whoever submitted it)

    if you are "innocent" , then CEL have 6 years to take it to small claims court where a judge will decide

    so if I were the innocent party, I would wait for an MCOL and let a judge decide the outcome , having put across my "case" , ie:- my defence

    I suggest you do the same

    ps:- I cannot see anything "urgent" that needs "urgent" attention in this , these things play out over years , not days
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 3:05 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:05 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:05 PM
    Does your phone record your whereabouts? You can use that to show CEL that they have no cause of action, and threaten them with a counter claim if they try to instigate court proceedings.

    Give up on POPLA, your appeal was weak (sorry) and written in a way that was bound to lose, and CEL providing the evidence pack in working hours on day 21 is fine. They did nothing wrong there and neither did POPLA.

    Forget POPLA now, POPLA is over, a wasted opportunity. You need some evidence for a court defence (and we win them).

    You should have appealed as keeper.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 3:10 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    gdsntmyjdg
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:10 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:10 PM
    Thank you for the swift reply.
    If it goes to a small claims court would the PCN charge stay the same or would there be further expenses?
    I put 'urgent' in the post just because I panicked. They're charging me £100 when I haven't done anything wrong and it's a huge amount when I have to pay other bills etc. POPLA didn't state when the PCN should be paid by either.
    It's just frustrating because I was so sure that the Civil Enforcement weren't going to submit an evidence pack on time and they do it at the very last moment. Yet, when I initially appealed with the Civil Enforcement before going to POPLA, they were quick on the ball to reply back to me.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Jul 17, 3:12 PM
    • 16,540 Posts
    • 20,699 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:12 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:12 PM
    if you "lost" in small claims court , a typical judgment may be say £175 in total

    if you win , you pay nothing and can claim up to £95 in expenses

    these companies are well used to how the system works and plan their sc@m accordingly , whilst I am afraid that you have "no idea" - sorry to say
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 3:13 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:13 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:13 PM
    Thank you for the swift reply.
    If it goes to a small claims court would the PCN charge stay the same or would there be further expenses?
    Originally posted by gdsntmyjdg
    The same, £100, plus potentially court fees of about £50 if you lost (you can't lose this).

    But your counter claim would be higher!

    Please answer the question about your phone, whether it has a Google Maps tracker.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
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    gdsntmyjdg
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
    I'm not sure if my phone records my whereabouts. It's a iPhone but surely it would need data to do that and I didn't have any that day.
    I should've posted on here before submitting my appeal but I had no idea what it was going to be like and I just panicked and wanted it over as soon as possible.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:14 PM
    It would be great if your phone does hold the key.

    Or, how about an Asda receipt as proof of where you were in between?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Jul 17, 3:15 PM
    • 6,342 Posts
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    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:15 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 3:15 PM
    POPLA and their understanding of ANPR IS WOEFUL

    Double Dipping goes straight over their heads and proves
    their lack of knowledge

    They will not back down in fear of them being seen as stupid.

    No problem it's only CEL and if they go on the attack, you can
    rely on the experience and experts on here
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 3:18 PM
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    gdsntmyjdg
    Unfortunately I didn't buy anything at ASDA, I just went there so I could pass time and have a look at any deals.
    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 3:23 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    gdsntmyjdg
    My phone has the Maps app but I'm not sure if it tracks my location unless I've got the app opened? I usually keep most of my location settings off. Again, wouldn't it need data to do this?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 3:24 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Check out the phone issue, maybe it automatically records the phone's whereabouts (you can tell I don't give two hoots about phones or anything connected to them!). To me, a phone is just bog standard phone, to call people and text them!

    But check with your phone provider, go and ask, or ring your provider. At the moment, you are guessing.

    This is important as you WILL be sued and will need to make your defence strong on this point, seeing as you've admitted to being the driver when you shouldn't have done.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Jul 17, 3:28 PM
    • 6,342 Posts
    • 8,150 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Unfortunately I didn't buy anything at ASDA, I just went there so I could pass time and have a look at any deals.
    Originally posted by gdsntmyjdg
    Still worth a try as a future (or not) customer.

    Asda gave Smart the elbow and I wonder why they took on CEL

    You should point this out to Asda as they have jumped from the frying pan into the fire

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=cel

    You need to ask the CEO of Asda why they employ scammers to terrorise their customers
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • gdsntmyjdg
    • By gdsntmyjdg 10th Jul 17, 3:37 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    gdsntmyjdg
    I don't know too much about phones either but I'm sure it doesn't record my whereabouts unless I have Maps open or I'm calling out to someone etc. I have also switched my phone provider since the incident happened.

    Beamerguy: I didn't get the PCN for parking at ASDA, I parked at the Overline House carpark before going to ASDA because I couldn't pay for my ticket.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jul 17, 6:16 PM
    • 15,513 Posts
    • 24,235 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I don't know too much about phones either but I'm sure it doesn't record my whereabouts unless I have Maps open or I'm calling out to someone etc. I have also switched my phone provider since the incident happened.
    I'm no expert, but I don't think any of the above is relevant.

    See if this helps:

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-to-see-your-iphone-location-history-2015-11?r=US&IR=T/#open-the-settings-app-on-your-iphone-and-tap-on-privacy-1
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 10th Jul 17, 7:56 PM
    • 10,202 Posts
    • 9,347 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    My phone has the Maps app but I'm not sure if it tracks my location unless I've got the app opened? I usually keep most of my location settings off. Again, wouldn't it need data to do this?
    Originally posted by gdsntmyjdg

    Good grief! Why don't you find out how to check this out with someone who knows? Hint - try an Apple store.

    If what you are saying is correct about the double dip, the PPC has the proof on their camera equipment but it is not in their interest to throw £100 away - especially this lot! So you need to explore the maps thing.

    If it got to court, then you are in a lottery and it all depends upon the judge of the day, I am afraid.
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