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  • FIRST POST
    • markhod
    • By markhod 10th Jul 17, 1:22 PM
    • 36Posts
    • 2Thanks
    markhod
    Brake pipes corroded MOT fail twice in two years
    • #1
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:22 PM
    Brake pipes corroded MOT fail twice in two years 10th Jul 17 at 1:22 PM
    Hello,

    In 2015 I had a MOT fail due to:

    Offside Front Brake pipe excessively corroded (3.6.B.2c)

    This was replaced. Then this week my car failed this years MOT for the same thing. I think I am surprised in just two years something can corrode to the point of needing to be replaced. At least googling on this lots of people seem to suggest normal lifetime for such a component is 10 years or so. The car is a 2005 Mini One. I wondered what peoples opinions on here are about this? If its normal is there something I could do to ensure the new pipes fitted do not also corrode? Its not obvious to me how I could clean them to prevent this in future without e.g. jacking the car up and doing it (which I am sure most people do not have any need to do).

    Cheers,

    Mark
Page 1
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 10th Jul 17, 1:29 PM
    • 234 Posts
    • 149 Thanks
    debtdebt
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:29 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:29 PM
    If you're not willing to jack up the car to get under it and either grease or spray a protecting layer onto the brake pipes, I'd suggest storing the car in a dry garage and not driving it in the wet.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Jul 17, 1:31 PM
    • 5,488 Posts
    • 4,968 Thanks
    Herzlos
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:31 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:31 PM
    Is it definitely the same section of pipe that was replaced?
    • markhod
    • By markhod 10th Jul 17, 1:32 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    markhod
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:32 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:32 PM
    Is it definitely the same section of pipe that was replaced?
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    I don't know. Both times it is definitely:

    Offside Front Brake pipe excessively corroded

    So unless this is fixable by replacing a sub-length of the pipe, it would mean it is the same part?
    • markhod
    • By markhod 10th Jul 17, 1:42 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    markhod
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:42 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:42 PM
    If you're not willing to jack up the car to get under it and either grease or spray a protecting layer onto the brake pipes, I'd suggest storing the car in a dry garage and not driving it in the wet.
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    Unfortunately I don't have a garage, so on road storage is the only option.

    hmm I suppose I could get a garage to do that once a year, if its significantly cheaper than replacing them every 2 years.
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 10th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    • 11,447 Posts
    • 6,405 Thanks
    Strider590
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    Perhaps they actually just covered it in lithium grease, then knowing a customer is likely to get shirty about paying someone £40 to squirt a bit of grease on it, they told you they'd replaced it instead......
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 10th Jul 17, 6:05 PM
    • 1,028 Posts
    • 698 Thanks
    Tarambor
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 6:05 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 6:05 PM
    If it was the same MOT place that repaired it last year I'd point that fact out to them and ask why it needed doing again when they'd only just done it a year earlier.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 10th Jul 17, 8:06 PM
    • 4,032 Posts
    • 3,511 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 8:06 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 8:06 PM
    Looking at a random brake layout for the Mini One on realoem it looks like there are at least half a dozen pipes that could be described as "OSF" depending on which end they're corroded at.

    Once you've had this one done, cavity wax is good for protecting them. It sticks better than grease, creeps to cover bits you might miss when spraying, "self heals" if the coating's broken, and doesn't trap water like underseal can.

    One spray can of Dinitrol or similar would more than cover all the pipes on the car.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 10th Jul 17, 9:06 PM
    • 1,632 Posts
    • 2,417 Thanks
    Robisere
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:06 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:06 PM
    Metal brake pipes as fitted to cars new, are usually steel and they do corrode easily. Steel pipe can also crack under "work-hardening" caused by vibration over a period of time.

    When I worked as a workshop foreman at a large independent garage and MOT station, we always replaced corroded steel pipes with "Kunifer" Cupro-Nickel pipe:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/55k/Clarik-Cupro-Nickel-Kunifer-Brake-Pipe-Roll/B00CRGGTX2

    The advantages of 'Kunifer' pipe, are that it does not corrode like steel, but oxidises to a hard, corrosion-resistant surface. (Like a Copper roof, or Bronze) It is also easier to work with, being flexible to a greater extent than steel pipe, and easier to cut and join with the correct bending tool and joint fittings.

    Make up your own minds as to why manufacturers do not fit such pipes as standard on new cars.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • EdGasketTheSecond
    • By EdGasketTheSecond 11th Jul 17, 12:52 PM
    • 190 Posts
    • 99 Thanks
    EdGasketTheSecond
    Make up your own minds as to why manufacturers do not fit such pipes as standard on new cars.
    Originally posted by Robisere
    Cost, strength of steel compared to Kunifer, and steel is less susceptible to work-hardening. Against that steel pipes corrode and are difficult to fit as a replacement as you can't bend them into shape and make ends easily requiring lots of dismantling in some instances to fit pre-bent pipes.

    Kunifer is a good material for a replacement pipe though.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 11th Jul 17, 8:31 PM
    • 1,632 Posts
    • 2,417 Thanks
    Robisere
    Cost, strength of steel compared to Kunifer, and steel is less susceptible to work-hardening. Against that steel pipes corrode and are difficult to fit as a replacement as you can't bend them into shape and make ends easily requiring lots of dismantling in some instances to fit pre-bent pipes.

    Kunifer is a good material for a replacement pipe though.
    Originally posted by EdGasketTheSecond
    I should not have use "work-hardening", but "Fretting" instead. That is the action of pipes contacting and rubbing against retaining clips and other areas of the floorpan/bodywork. Cupro-Nickel has a much higher resistance to wear in that instance. Reading this is worthwhile:
    http://copperalliance.org.uk/docs/librariesprovider5/resources/is49-copper-nickel-brake-tubing.pdf

    Extract:
    " Volvo, Lotus, Aston Martin, Porsche and Audi all now fit copper-nickel brake tubing as standard equipment. "

    These manufacturers have also discovered that the easier fitting of cupro-nickel, saves assembly time and therfore money per unit build.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 11th Jul 17, 8:43 PM
    • 4,317 Posts
    • 3,652 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    I should not have use "work-hardening", but "Fretting" instead. That is the action of pipes contacting and rubbing against retaining clips and other areas of the floorpan/bodywork. Cupro-Nickel has a much higher resistance to wear in that instance. Reading this is worthwhile:
    http://copperalliance.org.uk/docs/librariesprovider5/resources/is49-copper-nickel-brake-tubing.pdf

    Extract:
    " Volvo, Lotus, Aston Martin, Porsche and Audi all now fit copper-nickel brake tubing as standard equipment. "

    These manufacturers have also discovered that the easier fitting of cupro-nickel, saves assembly time and therfore money per unit build.
    Originally posted by Robisere
    If you weren't referring to work-hardening, then you also shouldn't have said the pipes 'crack'. Pipes that rub don't crack, they wear.

    I suspect you *did* mean to say 'work-hardening', but you were just incorrect about it.

    And whatever they said in 1990 as per that document, it's patently !!!!!!!! because the brake pipes in the Audis, Volvos, and Porsche that I've owned or maintained in the last decade or so have all quite definitely had steel pipes.
    • seatbeltnoob
    • By seatbeltnoob 11th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • 180 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    seatbeltnoob
    could be the replacement part used was a cheap one and not truly OEM or OEM standard which is why it rusted again so quickly.
    • Retrogamer
    • By Retrogamer 12th Jul 17, 11:44 AM
    • 3,735 Posts
    • 3,736 Thanks
    Retrogamer
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Most garages will replace a corroded steel pipe with a copper one which won't corrode anywhere near as quickly.

    I suspect they probably cleaned your original pipe rather than replace it and this year it looks rusty again.

    I always make a point of checking stuff before and after garages replace it
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 12th Jul 17, 12:41 PM
    • 4,032 Posts
    • 3,511 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    It's far more likely to be a different pipe. OSF, NSF and so on are only meant as pointers to the general area on an MOT. The parts list for the new Mini shows a lot of brake pipes in that area, all of which would be "OSF" as far as a fail sheet's concerned.
    • NeverEnough
    • By NeverEnough 12th Jul 17, 9:07 PM
    • 907 Posts
    • 735 Thanks
    NeverEnough
    Had a similar issue with my old BMW a few years back -it was at the main dealer for a warranty repair and MOT was due in the next month so asked them to do it for convenience (I thought).

    Only to get a message that it FAILED due to "excessively corroded brake pipes OSR and NSR". They demanded £1100 for repairs so I declined the lovely offer and took it to my local garage instead - family run, third generation, do lots of MOTs and general mechanical work. They quoted far less (around £300) to replace the brake lines if needed, but called me to say they had inspected the brake lines and there was absolutely no cause to replace them, the few rust spots were very superficial and brushed away easily. BMW brazened it out and insisted they were right when I confronted them about it later. 4 years later the same car still flies through MOTs every year -not at the main dealer however!

    Just wondering as this is a Mini if OP took it to a main dealer for MOT. Sounds like a similar scenario to the one I had!
    • markhod
    • By markhod 13th Jul 17, 3:17 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    markhod
    Thanks all!

    I solved the mystery. Since I keep all paperwork I went back and checked what the repair bill 2 years ago said - it mentions replacing 2 main shafts, and greasing a front pipe. So probably what happened, as a few said, 2 years the fix was to grease it to keep it working and then this year it is so bad it has to be replaced instead? The MOT this year was a different garage.
    • markhod
    • By markhod 13th Jul 17, 3:18 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    markhod
    Had a similar issue with my old BMW a few years back -it was at the main dealer for a warranty repair and MOT was due in the next month so asked them to do it for convenience (I thought).

    Only to get a message that it FAILED due to "excessively corroded brake pipes OSR and NSR". They demanded £1100 for repairs so I declined the lovely offer and took it to my local garage instead - family run, third generation, do lots of MOTs and general mechanical work. They quoted far less (around £300) to replace the brake lines if needed, but called me to say they had inspected the brake lines and there was absolutely no cause to replace them, the few rust spots were very superficial and brushed away easily. BMW brazened it out and insisted they were right when I confronted them about it later. 4 years later the same car still flies through MOTs every year -not at the main dealer however!

    Just wondering as this is a Mini if OP took it to a main dealer for MOT. Sounds like a similar scenario to the one I had!
    Originally posted by NeverEnough
    No, I use independent garages.
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