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    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 10th Jul 17, 11:42 AM
    • 148Posts
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    higgledypiggledy_pop
    Can I terminate my tenant's tenancy early for having an unauthorised pet?
    • #1
    • 10th Jul 17, 11:42 AM
    Can I terminate my tenant's tenancy early for having an unauthorised pet? 10th Jul 17 at 11:42 AM
    I am renting a flat to a couple on a 12 month tenancy agreement. When they applied they did not say anything about having a pet and in the tenancy agreement it states that tenants must get permission for any pets from the landlord first. I have been informed by a neighbour that one of the tenants has been seen going in and out of the flat with a dog, and the dog has also been seen in the garden. I asked the tenants about it and they claimed that it didn't belong to them but was a friend's who had been visiting or had left the dog there for a short time. I told them that I did not want a dog in the flat at all even if it was a friend's and that they should stop allowing the friend to bring the dog in, but it has been seen again since by my neighbour who watches and keeps me informed, when the woman tenant is around she often seems to have the dog with her.
    I think that the dog is probably really theirs or has been staying with them and I don't want it there. How can I go about ending their tenancy for breach of contract? Will I have to obtain proof that the dog is there? Does it matter legally whether it belongs to them or not?
    They also pre-paid all 12 months of their rent before moving in and have eight months remaining on the tenancy, will this make it harder for me to get them out?
Page 21
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 18th Jul 17, 11:52 AM
    • 148 Posts
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    higgledypiggledy_pop
    You will probably have to speak to a solicitor about access. As far as I understand it, you might have some success if you needed access in an emergency (ie. a water leak) but not guaranteed just for an inspection. Even if your tenancy agreement says you should be given access for inspections with 24 hours notice, a judge 'may' decide this infringes a tenants right to quiet enjoyment. They may not. The outcome can't be guaranteed. Judges can be funny things!

    There are grey areas, different points of view in this area of law. So a lot depends on who the judge is, his point of view and if its worth taking the risk of a court case for the outcome you want (an inspection). I know I went to court absolutely certain of the outcome, the judge went against what I understood the law to be, and the judgement went against us.., and that's more common than you think. To some degree it also depends on how good the tenant are at arguing their side of the case as well. They may be what we call 'professional tenants' who manage to delay and confuse what seems to be a perfectly clear case.

    Its also difficult because you are not near the property. If you went there, you would at least stand a chance of a conversation and could see through the door what state the place was in, but you could also make the situation worse if the conversation wasn't handled carefully. A professional tenant could accuse you of harrassment even if you conducted yourself perfectly.

    You could get advice from somewhere like https://www.landlordaction.co.uk/ or a similar organisation who seem to have a good understanding of tenancy law. But I doubt you could evict the tenants as you want as they are still in their fixed period, even if they have broken a clause in the tenancy agreement. But I think you do need some advice re deposit responsibilities etc, what action if any you can take against the LA. So these people might be useful for advice. There will probably be a cost even for advice though.
    Originally posted by deannatrois
    Could you please advise further. I made an appointment with the tenants who agreed to let my representative in (my sister) on Thursday as they were on holiday until then. My sister just phoned me to tell me that she called around at the property this morning. At first I thought that there had been a misunderstanding about times, but it transpires that she decided she would visit early as she did not believe the tenants to be on holiday as they claimed and was suspicious.

    I am fully aware that this was a bad idea. Her justification was that if there was anything going on that shouldn't be, they would just hide it before a planned inspection.

    She did not reveal her identity/mention the inspection and she is under the impression that she did not appear suspicious and that the girl who answered the door (as they are in fact not on holiday) could never know that this had any connection with me. If she is wrong and they do somehow piece it together has she/have I committed any kind of offence? This was completely unknowing on my part and I did absolutely not instruct her to do this.
    • aneary
    • By aneary 18th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
    • 423 Posts
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    aneary
    Could you please advise further. I made an appointment with the tenants who agreed to let my representative in (my sister) on Thursday as they were on holiday until then. My sister just phoned me to tell me that she called around at the property this morning. At first I thought that there had been a misunderstanding about times, but it transpires that she decided she would visit early as she did not believe the tenants to be on holiday as they claimed and was suspicious.

    I am fully aware that this was a bad idea. Her justification was that if there was anything going on that shouldn't be, they would just hide it before a planned inspection.

    She did not reveal her identity/mention the inspection and she is under the impression that she did not appear suspicious and that the girl who answered the door (as they are in fact not on holiday) could never know that this had any connection with me. If she is wrong and they do somehow piece it together has she/have I committed any kind of offence? This was completely unknowing on my part and I did absolutely not instruct her to do this.
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    Well they are going to know when she goes over on Thursday who she is.

    When inspections are done on my flat I normally ask them to be done after the cleaner has been (fortnightly regular clean) I don't say why I just say it's this is when they can visit.

    They may well be on holiday (from work) and don't want to have to tidy up for your visit when I say tidy up I mean giving the kitchen a once over hoover etc nothing major but there is a difference between a bit of mess you don't want others to see and the place being trashed.
    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 18th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
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    fairy lights
    She did not reveal her identity/mention the inspection and she is under the impression that she did not appear suspicious and that the girl who answered the door (as they are in fact not on holiday) could never know that this had any connection with me. If she is wrong and they do somehow piece it together has she/have I committed any kind of offence? This was completely unknowing on my part and I did absolutely not instruct her to do this.
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    Surely when she turns up on Thursday for the actual inspection they will immediately realise who she is? So her plan to check if they really were on holiday will have backfired as now she won't be able to carry out the inspection.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 18th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
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    Guest101
    Could you please advise further. I made an appointment with the tenants who agreed to let my representative in (my sister) on Thursday as they were on holiday until then. My sister just phoned me to tell me that she called around at the property this morning. At first I thought that there had been a misunderstanding about times, but it transpires that she decided she would visit early as she did not believe the tenants to be on holiday as they claimed and was suspicious.

    I am fully aware that this was a bad idea. Her justification was that if there was anything going on that shouldn't be, they would just hide it before a planned inspection.

    She did not reveal her identity/mention the inspection and she is under the impression that she did not appear suspicious and that the girl who answered the door (as they are in fact not on holiday) could never know that this had any connection with me. If she is wrong and they do somehow piece it together has she/have I committed any kind of offence? This was completely unknowing on my part and I did absolutely not instruct her to do this.
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    You may be guilty of harassment. But that's unlikely to go further.
    • The_Logans
    • By The_Logans 18th Jul 17, 1:13 PM
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    The_Logans
    Apologies I can't be bothered to read 21 pages. Why can't you do the inspection yourself?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 18th Jul 17, 1:17 PM
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    Guest101
    Apologies I can't be bothered to read 21 pages. Why can't you do the inspection yourself?
    Originally posted by The_Logans
    Because the OP is many miles away from his ancestral home ( a flat), which is filled with 18th c. furniture and the agent has run off with the deposit and a large chunk of rent. The OP is also liable to HMRC for a tidy sum in tax.


    But the neighbour has spotted a wolf in the house and is stalking the tenants. The OP then asked his sister to inspect, but she decided to put on her best 'murder she wrote' outfit and investigate the tenants claim to be on holiday!


    Come on keep up!
    • aneary
    • By aneary 18th Jul 17, 1:18 PM
    • 423 Posts
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    aneary
    Apologies I can't be bothered to read 21 pages. Why can't you do the inspection yourself?
    Originally posted by The_Logans
    She lives in scotland the property isn't in scotland.

    If you have a spare hour the 21 pages are worth reading.

    A wolf, a harrassment case, a tax avoidance scheme, missing agents, drugs farms and an 1700s mattress.
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 18th Jul 17, 2:10 PM
    • 3,663 Posts
    • 7,354 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    Because the OP is many miles away from his ancestral home ( a flat), which is filled with 18th c. furniture and the agent has run off with the deposit and a large chunk of rent. The OP is also liable to HMRC for a tidy sum in tax.


    But the neighbour has spotted a wolf in the house and is stalking the tenants. The OP then asked his sister to inspect, but she decided to put on her best 'murder she wrote' outfit and investigate the tenants claim to be on holiday!


    Come on keep up!
    Originally posted by Guest101

    Hey, Guest... Gizza quick summary of Game of Thrones, all series, please? Never watched it, might like to, maybe meh, and you could save several days of my life with a quick paragraph (and no more !!!)

    Ta in advance.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 18th Jul 17, 2:23 PM
    • 14,625 Posts
    • 14,349 Thanks
    Guest101
    Hey, Guest... Gizza quick summary of Game of Thrones, all series, please? Never watched it, might like to, maybe meh, and you could save several days of my life with a quick paragraph (and no more !!!)

    Ta in advance.
    Originally posted by DaftyDuck


    here goes! <Spoilers warning>




    England, (but not really England) medieval times. The scots are kept at bay by a Donald trumpesque wall of ice. The queen (who quite likes her brother) stops being queen for a little while, then starts being queen again. in the east some slaves are freed. A woman gets set on fire, but gives birth to some dragons. The north rebels a few times. The walking dead turns up for a while after some children stabbed a chap in the chest. And a young girl learns some excellent make up tips. there's some mild nudity and scenes which some viewers may find distressing (looking at you Ser Clagaine!)
    • gingercordial
    • By gingercordial 18th Jul 17, 2:30 PM
    • 955 Posts
    • 903 Thanks
    gingercordial
    Could you please advise further. I made an appointment with the tenants who agreed to let my representative in (my sister) on Thursday as they were on holiday until then. My sister just phoned me to tell me that she called around at the property this morning. At first I thought that there had been a misunderstanding about times, but it transpires that she decided she would visit early as she did not believe the tenants to be on holiday as they claimed and was suspicious.

    I am fully aware that this was a bad idea. Her justification was that if there was anything going on that shouldn't be, they would just hide it before a planned inspection.

    She did not reveal her identity/mention the inspection and she is under the impression that she did not appear suspicious and that the girl who answered the door (as they are in fact not on holiday) could never know that this had any connection with me. If she is wrong and they do somehow piece it together has she/have I committed any kind of offence? This was completely unknowing on my part and I did absolutely not instruct her to do this.
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    Goodness me, all these people determined to interfere on your behalf without your instruction! First your neighbour, now your sister... you really need to keep an eye on them - they're the ones causing you issues, not your poor tenants!

    To echo others, that's going to make it awkward on Thursday, isn't it? Your sister will need some nerve to brazen that one out. Or just cancel the inspection and leave them in peace.

    If I'd been away for a long weekend, maybe getting back Monday night, I'd probably have tried to arrange an inspection for later in the week rather than the first day back as I wouldn't have had time to tidy over the weekend (general tidying before having any visitor round, not implying dog-, baby- or meth lab-hiding tidying) or unpack. Nothing suspicious about that at all.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 18th Jul 17, 6:25 PM
    • 3,032 Posts
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    bouicca21
    England, (but not really England) medieval times. The scots are kept at bay by a Donald trumpesque wall of ice. The queen (who quite likes her brother) stops being queen for a little while, then starts being queen again. in the east some slaves are freed. A woman gets set on fire, but gives birth to some dragons. The north rebels a few times. The walking dead turns up for a while after some children stabbed a chap in the chest. And a young girl learns some excellent make up tips. there's some mild nudity and scenes which some viewers may find distressing (looking at you Ser Clagaine!)
    Oh thank you. I've never seen it either. Now I know I don't need to bother. This thread would make a far better tv series.
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 18th Jul 17, 8:20 PM
    • 148 Posts
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    higgledypiggledy_pop
    Surely when she turns up on Thursday for the actual inspection they will immediately realise who she is? So her plan to check if they really were on holiday will have backfired as now she won't be able to carry out the inspection.
    Originally posted by fairy lights
    Yes, this is correct and I am rather irate about it.
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 18th Jul 17, 8:28 PM
    • 148 Posts
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    higgledypiggledy_pop
    To echo others, that's going to make it awkward on Thursday, isn't it? Your sister will need some nerve to brazen that one out. Or just cancel the inspection and leave them in peace.
    Originally posted by gingercordial
    Yes, she didn't think about what would happen if she couldn't actually get in that way. Now I am going to have to travel all the way down myself, I just don't don't have any alternative.

    If I'd been away for a long weekend, maybe getting back Monday night, I'd probably have tried to arrange an inspection for later in the week rather than the first day back as I wouldn't have had time to tidy over the weekend (general tidying before having any visitor round, not implying dog-, baby- or meth lab-hiding tidying) or unpack. Nothing suspicious about that at all.
    The male tenant did actually say to me that they were away until Wednesday night, so frankly I doubt they were away at all. One positive thing is that they were also still moving around flagrantly at the weekend (the beginning of the 'holiday') where my neighbour could see them, so they can't be too aware that she has been keeping an eye on them!

    I agree that she is meddlesome and have had a word with her, but the result of this is that she has now started sending her 'updates' to my sister instead of me.
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 18th Jul 17, 8:46 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    higgledypiggledy_pop
    Because the OP is many miles away from his ancestral home ( a flat), which is filled with 18th c. furniture and the agent has run off with the deposit and a large chunk of rent. The OP is also liable to HMRC for a tidy sum in tax.


    But the neighbour has spotted a wolf in the house and is stalking the tenants. The OP then asked his sister to inspect, but she decided to put on her best 'murder she wrote' outfit and investigate the tenants claim to be on holiday!


    Come on keep up!
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Excuse me, but the 'flat' is only part of the ancestral home which which great sadness had to be divided into separate dwellings and some of them sold to pay the death tax, on some complicated leasehold. Mine is a substantial three-bedroom dwelling taking up a good portion of the ground floor. I also still own some of the grounds and outbuildings. My sister foolishly decided to sell her portion to live in a modern house, but my late brother's was passed to his children. Therefore over half of the value of the estate remains in the family and I feel justified in regarding it still as our estate and having a huge sentimental attachment to it.
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 18th Jul 17, 8:51 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    higgledypiggledy_pop
    She lives in scotland the property isn't in scotland.

    If you have a spare hour the 21 pages are worth reading.

    A wolf, a harrassment case, a tax avoidance scheme, missing agents, drugs farms and an 1700s mattress.
    Originally posted by aneary
    An apparent wolf DOG,
    NO harrassment case,
    NO tax avoidance scheme,
    Missing agent - yes, possibly
    NO drugs farms!
    Yes, a mattress. Goodness me, a mattress!

    Hardly the Forsyte Saga!
    • walwyn1978
    • By walwyn1978 18th Jul 17, 9:36 PM
    • 326 Posts
    • 286 Thanks
    walwyn1978
    I genuinely don't see how them supposedly being on holiday but not on holiday when someone called is such an issue. They may have been away then come home early because someone was ill?

    Have you decided that basically everything they say/do/are seen to do by your friends and neighbours is suspicious?

    And if you don't see any dogs/evidence of wrongdoing on Thursday, what happens then, will you just let them get on with it for the remaining months?
    • Riggyman
    • By Riggyman 18th Jul 17, 11:18 PM
    • 156 Posts
    • 136 Thanks
    Riggyman
    An apparent wolf DOG,
    NO harrassment case,
    NO tax avoidance scheme,
    Missing agent - yes, possibly
    NO drugs farms!
    Yes, a mattress. Goodness me, a mattress!

    Hardly the Forsyte Saga!
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    And no vampires. This thread is rubbish. 4/10 v.poor
    • higgledypiggledy_pop
    • By higgledypiggledy_pop 19th Jul 17, 1:33 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    higgledypiggledy_pop
    I genuinely don't see how them supposedly being on holiday but not on holiday when someone called is such an issue. They may have been away then come home early because someone was ill?

    Have you decided that basically everything they say/do/are seen to do by your friends and neighbours is suspicious?

    And if you don't see any dogs/evidence of wrongdoing on Thursday, what happens then, will you just let them get on with it for the remaining months?
    Originally posted by walwyn1978
    I would not care about whether they were on holiday or not if it had not basically been confirmed by my sister that damages may be occurring. When she rang the bell, she heard a lot of movements inside (not barking, but animal movements). When the female tenant finally answered the door, she had tightly closed the door on the other side of the vestibule. Although there were no vocal sounds, there was thumping against the inner door, several thumps as they spoke. My sister asked to use the phone thinking she could get a look into the house this way, but the female simply produced her mobile phone from her pocket. At this point there was a SCRATCHING noise on the other side of the door. As you can imagine, scratching noises are the last thing that I want to hear, this is exactly what I feared could happen when I first found out about the animal and it seems I may be justified!

    Additionally after some kind of charade with the mobile phone my sister asked if she could use the toilet, but the girl was obviously unwilling and said that it was currently out of order, no problem with the toilets have been reported so I think she was obviously trying to keep her out of the house because of the animal and/or something else. My sister made a joking comment about it sounding like an elephant inside but the tenant just laughed.

    ENough to give a most urgent need to inspect the doors, wooden surfaces for scratching (and the toilet!). It sounds rather unlikely that there will be no damage but of course if everything looks normal I have no choice but to wait!
    • aneary
    • By aneary 19th Jul 17, 1:38 PM
    • 423 Posts
    • 292 Thanks
    aneary
    I'm guessing as you don't work you are from the upper classes!

    If this is the way the upper classes behave I'm so glad I wasn't born into an upper class family.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th Jul 17, 1:46 PM
    • 14,625 Posts
    • 14,349 Thanks
    Guest101
    Excuse me, but the 'flat' is only part of the ancestral home which which great sadness had to be divided into separate dwellings and some of them sold to pay the death tax, on some complicated leasehold. Mine is a substantial three-bedroom dwelling taking up a good portion of the ground floor. I also still own some of the grounds and outbuildings. My sister foolishly decided to sell her portion to live in a modern house, but my late brother's was passed to his children. Therefore over half of the value of the estate remains in the family and I feel justified in regarding it still as our estate and having a huge sentimental attachment to it.
    Originally posted by higgledypiggledy_pop
    So much so that you rent it out to strangers.
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