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  • FIRST POST
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 9:14 AM
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    Pyxis
    Which is heavier: a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?
    • #1
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:14 AM
    Which is heavier: a pound of lead or a pound of feathers? 10th Jul 17 at 9:14 AM
    Well, according to some research done, it might actually be the pound of lead!

    At least perceptually, as found in this blind experiment............


    QUOTE
    Is a pound of lead heavier than a pound of feathers
    ?


    A pound of lead feels heavier than a pound of feathers, a thing long suspected, but not carefully tested until 2007, when Jeffrey B Wagman, Corinne Zimmerman and Christopher Sorric ran an experiment involving lead, feathers, plastic bags, cardboard boxes, a chair, blackened goggles and 23 volunteers from the town of Normal, Illinois.

    The scientists were based at Illinois State University. In a study published in the journal "Perception", they explained why they took the trouble........ '"Which weighs more – a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?'
    The seemingly naive answer to this familiar riddle is the pound of lead, whereas the correct answer is that they weigh the same amount
    .



    "But, they wrote, "this naive answer may not be so naive after all. For over 100 years, psychologists have known that two objects of equal mass can feel unequally heavy depending on the mass distribution of those objects."




    Wagman, Zimmerman, and Sorric poured some lead shot into a plastic bag, then sealed and taped the bag inside the bottom of a cardboard box.
    Then they stuffed a pound of goose feathers into a large plastic bag. This fluffed, baggy entity entirely filled a box that looked just like the box with lead.

    Then came the test. One by one, the volunteers sat in the chair, donned the blackened goggles, then "placed the palm of their preferred hand up with their fingers relaxed. On a given trial, each box was placed on the participant's palm in succession. The participant hefted each box and reported which box felt heavier
    ."


    Slightly more often than not, the volunteers said that the box with lead in its bottom was heavier than the box with feathers spread thoughout its innards.



    After weighing and judging all the data, the scientists educatedly hazarded a guess as to why one box seemed heavier.
    Probably, they said, it's because:




    "the mass of the feathers was distributed more or less symmetrically in the box (ie the feathers filled the box), but the mass of the lead was distributed asymmetrically along the vertical axis (the box was "bottom-heavy"). Therefore the box containing lead was more difficult to control and it felt heavier."

    The scientists did not test how volunteers would respond if the lead were fixed precisely in the middle, rather stuck to the bottom, of the box. This they left for future scientists to contemplate.

    UNQUOTE








    .
    Last edited by Pyxis; 10-07-2017 at 9:17 AM.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
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    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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Page 1
    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 10th Jul 17, 9:29 AM
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    fairy lights
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:29 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:29 AM
    A pound of feathers, obviously.
    The feathers would take up more space and you'd need a much bigger bag to carry them in, which would add extra weight.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
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    Pyxis
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    A pound of feathers, obviously.
    The feathers would take up more space and you'd need a much bigger bag to carry them in, which would add extra weight.
    Originally posted by fairy lights


    The thing is, the boxes they used were of the same size, so as to be indistinguishable to the research subjects.


    "Then they stuffed a pound of goose feathers into a large plastic bag. This fluffed, baggy entity entirely filled a box that looked just like the box with lead."
    (I just lurve spiders! )
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    • PompeyPete
    • By PompeyPete 10th Jul 17, 9:47 AM
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    PompeyPete
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:47 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:47 AM
    Researchers.....there are some, a lot, who give the good ones a bad name.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 9:50 AM
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    Pyxis
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:50 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Jul 17, 9:50 AM
    Researchers.....there are some, a lot, who give the good ones a bad name.
    Originally posted by PompeyPete




    I'd love to do it again, with more subjects and as a double-blind experiment!



    I wonder if it matters whether the feathers are chicken or goose?
    (I just lurve spiders! )
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    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 10th Jul 17, 10:23 AM
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    fairy lights
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 10:23 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 10:23 AM
    Another reason why the feathers are heavier - you also have to carry the weight of knowing what you did to those poor birds.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 10:34 AM
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    Pyxis
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 10:34 AM
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 10:34 AM
    Another reason why the feathers are heavier - you also have to carry the weight of knowing what you did to those poor birds.
    Originally posted by fairy lights
    They might have been chickens with alopecia?
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    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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    • Chris25
    • By Chris25 10th Jul 17, 2:13 PM
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    Chris25
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:13 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:13 PM
    Well, according to some research done, it might actually be the pound of lead!

    At least perceptually, as found in this blind experiment............


    QUOTE[B][U]
    nd 23 volunteers from the town of Normal, Illinois.

    ]
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    that made me laugh
    • Tipsntreats
    • By Tipsntreats 10th Jul 17, 7:32 PM
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    Tipsntreats
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 7:32 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 7:32 PM
    Now for something completely different.
    • Wizard of Id
    • By Wizard of Id 10th Jul 17, 9:05 PM
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    Wizard of Id
    They should have shaved the lead into small slithers rather than have one big lump.
    Every man is innocent until proven broke.
    Cryin won't help you, prayin won't do you no good.

    Walk 2000 miles in 2017 - 1957.3
    This week 73.5
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 10th Jul 17, 9:32 PM
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    Geoff1963
    The force sensors in the muscles, react to sudden changes ; which is why we judge the weight of an object by hefting, which really measures its inertial mass, rather than its gravitational mass. It's how weighing machines work on the ISS.

    The test was, ". . . each box was placed on the participant's palm in succession. The participant hefted each box".
    The person was moving the box up and down, causing all of the lead to follow a position / time relationship matching their hand, and the force was felt. The feathers by contrast, would have bounced a little, reducing the sharpness of the force, and hence feeling lighter. It the participant had hefted the box, by about the height of the box, all of the feathers would have moved a similar amount, and they would have felt more similar.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
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    Pyxis
    The force sensors in the muscles, react to sudden changes ; which is why we judge the weight of an object by hefting, which really measures its inertial mass, rather than its gravitational mass. It's how weighing machines work on the ISS.

    The test was, ". . . each box was placed on the participant's palm in succession. The participant hefted each box".
    The person was moving the box up and down, causing all of the lead to follow a position / time relationship matching their hand, and the force was felt. The feathers by contrast, would have bounced a little, reducing the sharpness of the force, and hence feeling lighter. It the participant had hefted the box, by about the height of the box, all of the feathers would have moved a similar amount, and they would have felt more similar.
    Originally posted by Geoff1963
    Hence the suggestion at the end of the OP quote that future research could be done with the lead fixed in the middle of the box, instead of at the bottom.
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    • Mrs Bones
    • By Mrs Bones 10th Jul 17, 10:35 PM
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    Mrs Bones
    Depends if the feathers are still attached to the birds.
    “I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” ~ Maya Angelou
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 10th Jul 17, 10:41 PM
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    Pyxis
    Depends if the feathers are still attached to the birds.
    Originally posted by Mrs Bones
    Well, if the box goes 'cluck' when you heft it, then they are.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
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    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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    • hunters
    • By hunters 10th Jul 17, 11:50 PM
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    hunters
    When all is said and done I'd rather sleep under a pound of feathers than a pound of lead
    • redux
    • By redux 11th Jul 17, 12:21 AM
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    redux
    Researchers.....there are some, a lot, who give the good ones a bad name.
    Originally posted by PompeyPete
    I just saw a repeat of an old Have I got news for you programme, in which one subject discussed was a researcher earning £300,000 to investigate whether cod have regional accents.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 11th Jul 17, 5:36 AM
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    Pyxis
    There is some logic to that, because the ability of different groups to communicate can affect their ability to breed, and hence could affect fish stocks........


    "With climate change, sea temperatures are rising and cold water species such as cod are migrating north.

    If different regional populations coming into contact for the first time do not share the same vocal repertoire, they could struggle to integrate, share territory and breed, the experts suggest."

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/05/cod-may-have-regional-accents-scientists-say
    (I just lurve spiders! )
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    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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    • Mrs Bones
    • By Mrs Bones 11th Jul 17, 10:20 AM
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    Mrs Bones
    There is some logic to that, because the ability of different groups to communicate can affect their ability to breed, and hence could affect fish stocks........


    "With climate change, sea temperatures are rising and cold water species such as cod are migrating north.

    If different regional populations coming into contact for the first time do not share the same vocal repertoire, they could struggle to integrate, share territory and breed, the experts suggest."

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/05/cod-may-have-regional-accents-scientists-say
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't laugh and it is interesting Pyxis but it just the thought of immigrant cod having integration issues. Do we have a minister for that.
    “I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” ~ Maya Angelou
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 11th Jul 17, 11:38 AM
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    Pyxis
    I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't laugh and it is interesting Pyxis but it just the thought of immigrant cod having integration issues. Do we have a minister for that.
    Originally posted by Mrs Bones
    Well, it is amusing!

    But fascinating!
    Animal communication is a very interesting study...... what's it called now? It was on a an episode of "Lewis" the other day.......Ethology, I think.

    Apparently, the cod make the sounds from the swim bladder, not their throats, and the examples given on the website do in fact sound different.p, so I. An quite understand how the cod brains get confoosed.com.



    I wonder if the indigenous northern cod moan about all the furren cod coming into their territory and speaking furren, with their funny furren coddy ways, without so much as a by-your-leave?


    Apparently, haddock are quite vocal, too!
    Last edited by Pyxis; 11-07-2017 at 11:43 AM.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..
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    X ~O
    • Mrs Bones
    • By Mrs Bones 11th Jul 17, 5:40 PM
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    Mrs Bones
    Well, it is amusing!

    But fascinating!
    Animal communication is a very interesting study...... what's it called now? It was on a an episode of "Lewis" the other day.......Ethology, I think.

    Apparently, the cod make the sounds from the swim bladder, not their throats, and the examples given on the website do in fact sound different.p, so I. An quite understand how the cod brains get confoosed.com.



    I wonder if the indigenous northern cod moan about all the furren cod coming into their territory and speaking furren, with their funny furren coddy ways, without so much as a by-your-leave?


    Apparently, haddock are quite vocal, too!
    Originally posted by Pyxis

    This is a debate that raises a whole lot of new set of questions, as well as put a new spin on the possible issue of new Cod Wars taking place.

    Can these furren cod claim refugee status given they are having to migrate due to global warning?
    “I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” ~ Maya Angelou
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