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  • FIRST POST
    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 9th Jul 17, 10:15 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 5Thanks
    ChristianL
    Civil Enforcement Ltd - Goldstone Retail Park
    • #1
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:15 PM
    Civil Enforcement Ltd - Goldstone Retail Park 9th Jul 17 at 10:15 PM
    I have read the newbies, and it contains some great detail.

    I received a PCN for overstay at the Goldstone Retail Park in Brighton. Initially I replied stating my case, providing receipts of the shopping I did their that day. My appeal was rejected, so I looked into this further and went back to the site, and searched for the signs. There isn't any, nothing at all that I could find, and I had a good look around the carpark. (I have since looked on google maps, and there used to be by the looks of the images, but have since been removed and are no longer there) I took some photographs and and replied to their denial letter questioning their authority to issue the PCN. I did this before I found this site, so would like to know if I am creating a bigger hole for myself.

    A few points to note,
    -Car was hired, so they would have to have got my details from hire company and DVLA?
    -There was about 5 to 6 weeks from alleged offence to time when I received the PCN
    -I have submitted an appeal to POPLA through their website
    -I have complained to the retail outlets, and will follow up with head office
    -I complained to what I thought was the management company, but they have called me up to inform me that they are tot the correct contact, and will send me the correct contacts via return post. Once I have these details I will respond.

    I have copied the text from my initial letter and my reply below, any kind (or unkind ) advise would be welcomed.

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am writing concerning the above mentioned PCN, and seek your kind understanding to forfeit this charge due to the following circumstances.
    I had been shopping with my 3 children in Toys R Us, spending a total of £246.34 which can be shown in the attached copy of my online bank statement. Note that the charges were incurred on the Friday in question, but did not appear on my statement until the Monday morning.
    Following from Toys R Us, I then moved to TK Max and spent a total of £129.34 in the store within the same retail park.
    We completed the shopping within the time limit, and made our way back to the car, however, my 3-year-old daughter, who was by this time in a distressed state, vomited all over the back seat of the car, which we had to clean before departing. On top of this, my son then decided that he urgently needed to use the bathroom. As the only likely available toilet would be the one in Burger King located within the same retail park, I sent him their escorted by my eldest son while I continued to clean up my car and daughter. After which I moved the car adjacent to Burger King and waited for both my sons to exit. As soon as they exited Burger King we exited the car park & retail park.
    As you have indicated that you have photographic evidence, this should be easy to corroborate along with proof of my shopping charges. Under the circumstances, the last thing on my mind was overstaying the 3 hour maximum stay by 15 minutes, and I would be happy to pay for this time, but I ask that you can kindly forfeit the above mentioned PCN.

    Should you require any further evidence or information, please do not hesitate to contact me via email or phone.
    Sincerely,


    Reply to their denial


    Dear Sir

    Further to your response dated 30 June 2017, I regret to inform you that I do not accept your response. Further to this, I have since visited the retail park in question, and see no evidence of any parking terms or limitations displayed at the entrance, as indicated in your initial PCN. I could find NO reference to any parking restrictions, limitations, or potential Parking Charge Notice. The only notice on the entrance indicates that the parking “is for the use of customers only and will be locked after normal hours”, as indicated in the accompanying photographs. Further to this, I see no evidence that Civil Enforcement Ltd are authorised to levy these charges on behalf of the retail park management. Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged for a free car park, it can only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket
    I previously provided you with documented evidence supporting my claim that I was a customer of both Toys R Us, and TK Max, so I am considered a customer. I did not leave the retail park to shop elsewhere, or abuse the parking facility in any way. Therefore, I consider this PCN to be unlawful, and unreasonable, and exceeds an appropriate amount, which has no relationship to the loss that would have been suffered.
    As you have indicated that you have photographic evidence of my visit, I request Civil Enforcement Ltd to present records, along with records as to the dates and times of when the cameras were checked, calibrated and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images.
    Unless you can provide documented evidence that Civil Enforcement Ltd is legally authorised to demand this charge, that there was reasonable and visible signage clearly stating the terms of use of the car park in question, on the day of the alleged offence, and documented evidence from the ANPR system, then I hereby notify you that I will recuperate all my costs in relation to this unlawful PCN. As you have indicated that £100 is a fair charge for 15 minutes, I calculate my fees as follows.
    Letter dated 21 June 2017 2 X 15 Minute Units @ £100 per unit = £200.00
    Letter dated 4 July 2017 2 X 15 Minute Units @ £100 per unit = £200.00
    Total owed to date = £400.00
    Future correspondence relating to this matter will be charged at a minimum hourly rate of £400.00 on each occurrence. Please provide payment in the form of a cheque mailed to the address indicated above, or call for bank transfer details. Failure to pay my costs will result in additional charges, and interest on any outstanding amount at 1.5% per month.

    Yours faithfully

    Enclosed, Photographic evidence
    CC Goldstone Retail Park Management
    Toys’R’Us Branch Manager @ Goldstone Retail Park
    TK Max Branch Manager @ Goldstone Retail Park
    Last edited by ChristianL; 09-07-2017 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Added additional Removed personal detailsdetail.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Jul 17, 10:17 PM
    • 32,050 Posts
    • 16,120 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:17 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:17 PM
    You need to edit the op to remove details that identify you to the ppc.

    The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you

    (You charge £400/hour for replying to s ppc
    This took 5 mins. Please send me £35)
    Last edited by Quentin; 09-07-2017 at 10:19 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    • 14,735 Posts
    • 18,514 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    what a shame you blabbed and outed the driver !!

    and as mentioned above , edit post #1 and remove references and personal details
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 10:32 PM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:32 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:32 PM
    Have you complained to Toys R Us and TK Maxx, showing them copy of the respective receipt and ask them to intervene and get this ticket cancelled? If they prove elusive, I'd be taking the goods back, ask to see the manager and ask for a refund as you need the money to pay the 'fine' imposed on you by CEL.

    Please stop the nonsense about your charges for time spent on sending letters, because you can't enforce, they know that, they deal with and discard this sort of empty threat every day and it probably makes them more determined to ratchet up their intimidation of you.

    £400 per hour my a***! You'd have to be in my league to charge that amount!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 9th Jul 17, 10:42 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:42 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:42 PM
    I didn't say I was the driver, I said I had been shopping. The car was hired in my name.
    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 9th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    I complained to both Toys R Us & TK Max, along with the receipts. If I dont get any response I will reply, cc'ing their regional offices indicating that I will return the goods.

    I will continue to notify them of my charges, they have already indicated that £100 is acceptable for 15 minutes, and I've put in more time than they have on this issue. And considering that in my day job it costs over £7,000 / hour to keep me and my bell partner working, I believe £400 / hour is reasonable for my personal time.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 11:28 PM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:28 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:28 PM
    I believe £400 / hour is reasonable for my personal time.
    I'll take a keen interest in seeing a Judge's view when you issue a claim to enforce this.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Jul 17, 11:50 PM
    • 32,050 Posts
    • 16,120 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:50 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:50 PM
    II believe £400 / hour is reasonable for my personal time.
    Originally posted by ChristianL

    If your time is so valuable you need to decide whether you can afford to spend the time needed to deal with this.

    It will be cost effective for you to nip this in the bud now and negotiate a deal with the ppc!
    Last edited by Quentin; 09-07-2017 at 11:53 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 12:15 AM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 12:15 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 12:15 AM
    at the Goldstone Retail Park in Brighton
    ''Hove, actually''...as they say!

    I know that retail park - was much more entertaining when it was the beloved Goldstone Ground (wipes away a tear)...

    Anyway, how long ago were you issued with the POPLA code and did you actually manage to lose at POPLA or is it something we can still rescue for you by that route?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-07-2017 at 12:18 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 10th Jul 17, 7:42 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    ''Hove, actually''...as they say!

    I know that retail park - was much more entertaining when it was the beloved Goldstone Ground (wipes away a tear)...
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yes, but when I mention Hove, people often say "Where?" but everyone knows Brighton....

    I have submitted appeal a couple of days ago, so it is still in process. I will update when I get something back.

    My point is, and lets not get hung up on the £400, but that there is no sign with any time restrictions, or anything inside. Just a big sign that the car park is for customers.

    I would post a picture, but it isn't allowing me to do so.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 3:59 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You don't need to show pics.

    I know there ARE signs in that car park, went there not long ago and believe me, I look closely at signs.

    I want to know how old your POPLA code is, because writing back to CEL at POPLA stage, is the wrong thing. You are heading to being sued when in fact, you might still be within the POPLA month to appeal?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 10th Jul 17, 5:02 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    There are NO signs there, I had another look there today. I can see on google street view where they were, but they have been removed. There is a new sign at the entrance which just states the following

    Goldstone Retail Park

    This car park is for the use of customers only and will be locked after normal hours.

    (Pictorial signs as follows)

    [No trading or transfer of materials allowed in this car park]

    [ANPR cameras in operation]

    Property managed by JLL
    Helpdesk 0845 257 4023

    THERE ARE NO OTHER SIGNS WITHIN THE CAR PARK!
    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 10th Jul 17, 5:04 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    You don't need to show pics.

    I know there ARE signs in that car park, went there not long ago and believe me, I look closely at signs.

    I want to know how old your POPLA code is, because writing back to CEL at POPLA stage, is the wrong thing. You are heading to being sued when in fact, you might still be within the POPLA month to appeal?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I received the POPLA code on the 30 June.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 5:12 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great, so you can appeal to POPLA this month, and win. With our help...

    You can guess where I'm going to drive to this weekend! No signs there now, eh?!

    Sounds like CEL might have been kicked out - trouble is, that means they will start suing their back catalogue of victims they have data for (they did this with more than one site, as 'revenge claims').

    A nasty bunch, CEL.

    Oops, you said this:

    I have submitted an appeal to POPLA through their website
    What did you say to POPLA? Hope you have not done it yet?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-07-2017 at 5:14 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 10th Jul 17, 5:22 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    Oops, you said this:



    What did you say to POPLA? Hope you have not done it yet?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I informed them that there was no signs stating that there were parking restrictions, and provided photographic evidence.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 5:24 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Interesting...very interesting to see what CEL say if they contest it. I must drive there and look soon!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 11th Jul 17, 12:03 AM
    • 1,721 Posts
    • 964 Thanks
    Ian011
    Property managed by JLL
    Helpdesk 0845 257 402
    Originally posted by ChristianL
    You can report that sign to ASA. Failure to declare call costs alongside an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number is a breach of Ofcom regulations.

    ASA deals with complaints about 084 numbers. PSA deals with complaints about 087, 09 and 118 numbers.
    • ChristianL
    • By ChristianL 18th Jul 17, 1:15 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ChristianL
    Update from the Goldstone Park Management
    OK, so here is an update from the Goldstone Retail Park Management, who confirm that CEL have been terminated. They are going with another company with more emphasis on logical patrolling rather than hard and fast time limits. Sounds good to me.

    As for CEL, they claim they no longer have access to the details as they have removed their system, lets see if that is still the case when it comes to the appeal.... One thinks they will suddenly find the details when it suits them....
    Chris,

    I did contact the old car park operator to request cancellation of your PCN but unfortunately now that the contract has been terminated they no longer have access to the site information as the system has been removed.

    They comment that you will have to follow the appeals route,

    email: appeals@ce-service.co.uk, or write to:

    Civil Enforcement Limited,
    Horton House,
    Exchange Flags,
    L2 3PF

    Sorry I could not be of more help.

    Kind regards

    Paul


    Paul Anthony
    Senior Surveyor - Property and Asset Management
    JLL
    40 Bank Street
    Canary Wharf | London E14 5EG

    T: +44 (0)203 147 1436
    Paul.Anthony@eu.jll.com
    jll.co.uk
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jul 17, 10:06 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Errrrm..which company? Not an IPC firm?!

    I went there at the weekend and of course you are right - no signs at all any more.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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