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  • FIRST POST
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 8:47 PM
    • 27Posts
    • 15Thanks
    LauraV
    I have read the newbie thread but think my case is different... help
    • #1
    • 9th Jul 17, 8:47 PM
    I have read the newbie thread but think my case is different... help 9th Jul 17 at 8:47 PM
    Hi
    I am VERY new to this so I apologise now for my lack of knowledge etc
    I received a PCN on 30/06/17 from Parking & Property Management ltd for not displaying a valid permit.
    As I had arrived home from work with numerous bags to carry I did forget to display the permit. When I remembered around 45 minutes later I rushed down to my car to find the PCN, however the location is incorrect. Believing that I had grounds for appeal I completed their appeal form on their website. I did do some research online and this is what I put:
    'I wish to formally challenge the above PCN.
    The PCN states that the vehicle was parked in ‘****’. The car in question was never parked in the stated location at the mentioned time or date. Therefore the contravention did not occur.'
    Today I received their judgement, which of course they have refused my appeal. They stated that due to the photographic evidence they have that the location on the PCN was not relevant.
    Being a complete novice to this I have most probably made errors in my process but wondered whether I had grounds to take it to the IAS?
    I look forward to hearing from you all
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 9:53 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:53 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:53 PM
    everybody thinks "their case is different"

    sorry to say , it isnt , its all been heard , seen and done over until blackened and withered many times before

    the NEWBIES sticky thread tells you alll you need to know , including the kangaroo court known as the IAS

    doesnt matter what your appeal said , they almost ALWAYS refuse appeals because there is no profit in accepting it !!

    so doomed to failure from the word go

    they tend to put errors into the windscreen ticket to fire up the emotions of those they are sc@mming into hasty , badly worded appeals that dob in the driver or blab

    you are now at the impasse stage , where you IGNORE for 6 years unless you get an LBC or MCOL in the post (ignore the DCA letters in the meantime)

    if the PPC wishes to try court , they will do so

    meanwhile , contact the MA or landholder and demand a cancellation

    and if its your parking space, dig out your lease and see what it says (or does not say) about parking

    I can assure you this same scenario has featured on here dozens of times, the advice is the same

    APPEAL ONCE

    then IGNORE

    complain to landholder or the MA

    come back if an LBC or MCOL arrive

    and google JOPSON and read about her case

    ps:- if CM below advises different , go with her plan , but bear what I said in mind
    Last edited by Redx; 09-07-2017 at 9:56 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Jul 17, 9:55 PM
    • 48,177 Posts
    • 61,639 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:55 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:55 PM
    If the location is completely wrong, I would actually try IAS, for once! But with our help.

    So how wrong are we talking, not just a small error?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
    • 6,675 Posts
    • 5,659 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
    If you do some reading you will see that your case is not at all different. Read some of this stuff.


    https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=own+space+parking+fine&spf=149963379 4173
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 10:02 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:02 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:02 PM
    Firstly thank you for your replies.
    I did apologise initially for my lack of knowledge... I am completely clueless!
    Coupon-mad - yes the location is completely wrong/ different town.
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 10:07 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:07 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:07 PM
    And in my hast I did disclose the driver details ��
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 10:16 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:16 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:16 PM
    check what your lease says (or fails to mention) , about parking

    and in future, do not blab !!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 10:21 PM
    • 13,586 Posts
    • 21,307 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:21 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:21 PM
    I have read the newbie thread but think my case is different... help
    Really? Half the threads we deal with open up with a similar sentence. The reality in almost every one is a firm case of 'No it's not!' It's a fair indication that the poster doesn't understand the issues. We've seen it, we've been there, we know what we're doing, so please follow advice.

    However, the reality in dealing with an IPC AOS operator is that there is no realistic prospect of having the charge independently assessed by a second stage appeals service, no realistic prospect of getting it cancelled by the IAS. The IAS is simply too heavily biased towards the parking operators. The have promised their operators that they will reject 85% of all cases. How 'independent' is that? You have little or no chance via an appeal.

    The only process you now have for an independent review of your case is via a Judge at the small claims court. Unfortunately whether you get there or not is entirely in the hands of the PPC in terms of whether they decide to issue court proceedings against you. They have 6 years to do so.

    Come back if you receive a Letter Before Claim, or real court papers.

    Today I received their judgement, which of course they have refused my appeal. They stated that due to the photographic evidence they have that the location on the PCN was not relevant.
    Without giving the precise details in the PCN, or your specific location, can you give us an example of how incorrectly the location is recorded?

    Please also follow Redx's advice on rattling the cage of the MA/landowner.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 09-07-2017 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Sorting out this frustrating predictive text that simply produces nonsense sentences at times!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 10:29 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:29 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 10:29 PM
    I appreciate that almost every case is not different however for someone as clueless as me the newbie thread is very daunting and confusing.
    The location on the PCN and the actual location are 15miles apart.
    I would rattle the cage of the landowners, however the original landowners wiped their hands of the site and it's now under many different companies - Residents association, management company etc.
    A new parking system was introduced in January this year and it has all been linked to our lease - as many other residents have queried it already.
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 10:32 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Redx - I definitely won't be blabbing again
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 10:32 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    so what does your 2017 lease say about the parking ?

    word for word please , no more beating around the bush , give us something to work with

    and the current management company should be able to cancel it , hence why we tell you to badger them , because if you want it gone , they are the best way to achieve it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 10:54 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    I have just looked through the lease I have and there is little reference to parking.
    I am going to bring this up with the residents association now
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • 13,586 Posts
    • 21,307 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    The location on the PCN and the actual location are 15miles apart.
    If that is the case then you should (unusually) look at an IAS appeal as per Coupon-mad's advice. I think there's a good chance of painting the PPC and/or the IAS into a corner.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 09-07-2017 at 11:00 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 10:59 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    you have a primacy of contract with your lease and the parking company cannot supercede it , so if your lease doesnt mention the parking and there is no requirement to display a permit , they cannot vary your lease and that lease trumps any parking contract

    look at recent parking prankster blogs about this topic

    and badger those fools at the MA about the legal aspect of this , because in any court case you can hold them jointly and severally liable

    also read the DOZENS of other residents threads on here , plus the JOPSON case , where she won on appeal

    I am sure that this lease will be a major factor in any appeal, plus in any future court case

    so dobbing in the driver means you can concentrate on beating them over the head with contracts and leases

    we appreciate its all new to you , but its not to the regulars here
    and you were right to start a new thread about it
    and no , its not different , read this

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    and read this PPM one

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/parking-and-property-management-ltd.html
    Last edited by Redx; 09-07-2017 at 11:04 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 11:17 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Thank you for your replies.
    I will take this to the management company initially... how do you advise the best way to word this?!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 11:22 PM
    • 13,586 Posts
    • 21,307 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thank you for your replies.
    I will take this to the management company initially... how do you advise the best way to word this?!
    Originally posted by LauraV
    Assertively!

    Have a go at drafting a response (you know the details, not us), post it here and regulars will help you shape it for despatch.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 11:25 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    that the parking company is there to deter unwanted parkers , not legitimate residents , that the initial appeal system is there to sort the wheat from the chaff , so the appeal from a legitimate tenant/leaseholder should have been upheld , that the PPC should have some sort of "whitelist" of vehicles allowed to park , not some antiquated paper based system thats open to errors and human mistakes , that your lease trumps any parking regime due to primacy of contract and a parking company cannot vary the terms of your lease

    I am sure there will be other factors , show them the link to where PPM lost in court and what the judge said about the lease

    bear in mind that you are not the only person who has a lease and a parking space , there are tens of thousands of you and this topic is a daily occurrence on these forums and others , hence the two cases I linked and dozens and hundreds more besides them

    another winner here

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4135638/Desperate-Scousewives-s-Elissa-Corrigan-beats-firm-VCS.html
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LauraV
    • By LauraV 9th Jul 17, 11:34 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    LauraV
    Ok I will take this to them tomorrow however I feel that they will shoot it down due to the car being in a visitors bay and the signage all stating about visitors permits having to be clearly displayed.

    The wrong location on the PCN is the only reason for my appeal.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 11:37 PM
    • 14,750 Posts
    • 18,542 Thanks
    Redx
    the signage does not over ride your primacy of contract on your lease

    and any appeal to the IPC or any defence in court will major on several legal arguments , not one

    your MA should be able to cancel this regardless , you are a legitimate tenant/leaseholder and your vehicle can only take up one space , so if its takes you longer to unload , so what ?

    what do you think JOPSON argued ?

    the PPC is there to keep unwanted people out , not harass the residents

    in post #1 you mentioned that you parked , but no mention of a visitors bay , so if its your residence then surely you have the right to park in your own space or a visitors space ? you have since said that your lease mentions little or nothing about parking , so where is the variance of contract in your lease by the PPC or the MA ?

    lose the fear factor and guilt and assume you have a right to park on that land , you did , you may have made a slight mistake regarding the permit or time factor but the PPC had the opportunity to cancel this when faced with the facts and that you are entitled to park on the site as a resident

    they have lost in court on these very points , some quite recently
    Last edited by Redx; 09-07-2017 at 11:52 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 12:22 AM
    • 48,177 Posts
    • 61,639 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I still fancy a little go at IAS with this one.

    On the basis that the location on the PCN is wrong, the PCN is not validly given.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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