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  • FIRST POST
    • Millie1982
    • By Millie1982 9th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Millie1982
    Care Home Fees
    • #1
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
    Care Home Fees 9th Jul 17 at 11:57 AM
    Hi there,

    I really need some advice regarding what a local council has the right to where my dad's money is concerned.

    Like many, my dad failed to safe-guard the house and put it in my name some years ago, he wrote a Will leaving it to me, but of course it doesn't work like that.

    My dad now has dementia; the house was sold to pay for his care home fees. As I understand it, when a person's funds / assets drop to £14,250 they are entitled to keep what is left (including the pension pot?) - So with this in mind, I transferred the (£14,250) out dad's account (I am Lasting Power of Attorney) and in to one of my accounts (one which I don't actually use), knowing full well that debits made by the council from my dad's account would continue beyond that point.
    The council decided to have me investigated due to the stopped payments.
    Long story short, the OPG (Officer of the Public Guardian) investigating me found that my dad's money was intact and that I haven't been on spending sprees or abused it in any way. However, after almost a year of not paying any care fees on my dad's behalf, the council are now saying (based on their calculations of dad's assets are :-
    Please shed some light if the council are right in this matter to consider the following :
    1) dad’s funeral plan an 'asset' (£2,500)
    2) UNCLAIMED Attendance Allowance
    3) At what point do the council step in and cover dad’s care fees (if not at £14250)
    4) Any money in dad’s account now has accrued over the last 12 months and is his pension – How much of his monthly income are they entitled to? – I read that they shouldn’t be touching his pension

    Any advice would be welcomed!
    M
Page 1
    • elsien
    • By elsien 9th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    • 15,075 Posts
    • 37,746 Thanks
    elsien
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-care/care-homes/paying-for-permanent-residential-care/
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Kim_13
    • By Kim_13 9th Jul 17, 12:20 PM
    • 1,240 Posts
    • 1,631 Thanks
    Kim_13
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:20 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:20 PM
    Hi there,

    I really need some advice regarding what a local council has the right to where my dad's money is concerned.

    Like many, my dad failed to safe-guard the house and put it in my name some years ago, he wrote a Will leaving it to me, but of course it doesn't work like that.

    My dad now has dementia; the house was sold to pay for his care home fees. As I understand it, when a person's funds / assets drop to £14,250 they are entitled to keep what is left (including the pension pot?) - So with this in mind, I transferred the (£14,250) out dad's account (I am Lasting Power of Attorney) and in to one of my accounts (one which I don't actually use), knowing full well that debits made by the council from my dad's account would continue beyond that point.
    The council decided to have me investigated due to the stopped payments.
    Long story short, the OPG (Officer of the Public Guardian) investigating me found that my dad's money was intact and that I haven't been on spending sprees or abused it in any way. However, after almost a year of not paying any care fees on my dad's behalf, the council are now saying (based on their calculations of dad's assets are :-
    Please shed some light if the council are right in this matter to consider the following :
    1) dad’s funeral plan an 'asset' (£2,500)
    2) UNCLAIMED Attendance Allowance
    3) At what point do the council step in and cover dad’s care fees (if not at £14250)
    4) Any money in dad’s account now has accrued over the last 12 months and is his pension – How much of his monthly income are they entitled to? – I read that they shouldn’t be touching his pension

    Any advice would be welcomed!
    M
    Originally posted by Millie1982
    Is Dad in England? A resident is only entitled to keep £24.90 per week of their income if they are funded by the council. There are a few exceptions like the mobility component of DLA/PIP, which the resident gets to keep on top of the £24.90.

    Between £23,250 and £14,250 the council will part fund his care, but they will reduce their contribution by £1 per week for every £250 your dad has above the £14,250.

    My Auntie is a funded resident and the council will treat anything they deem unclaimed as if the resident has it. Auntie has a private pension (total pot circa 3k) which she hasn't claimed (she now seems to be seeing it as more of a funeral plan) and they assume a weekly income from it. This is despite the fact that she would still be under the limit for full support if the whole amount was sitting in her bank account.

    The figures are slightly different for the rest of the UK.
    Sealed Pot 10 #520 ~ ~£66.55/£100
    VSP 2017 #9 ~ £41.40/£250.00
    CCCC 2017 #1 ~ £179.71/£120.00
    EF #170 ~ £500
    Xmas 2017 #25 ~ £5/£365
    365 Day Penny Challenge #4 ~ £17.31/£667.95
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 9th Jul 17, 12:58 PM
    • 22,881 Posts
    • 13,243 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:58 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 17, 12:58 PM
    So with this in mind, I transferred the (£14,250) out dad's account (I am Lasting Power of Attorney) and in to one of my accounts (one which I don't actually use),
    You should not have done this and I am surprised that the OPG didn't query your action.

    You could have opened a savings account in your father's name and moved the money into that.

    I don't see how the funeral plan can be regarded as an asset.

    Withe regard to AA see http://hoop.eac.org.uk/downloads/kbase/2050.pdf

    And read link in post 2 above.

    https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/info/20032/legal_and_financial/848/what_is_nhs_continuing_healthcare
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 9th Jul 17, 1:02 PM
    • 22,881 Posts
    • 13,243 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 1:02 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 1:02 PM
    Like many, my dad failed to safe-guard the house and put it in my name some years ago
    If he had done this, it might have been regarded as deliberate deprivation of assets to secure or increase means tested benefits.

    http://www.payingforcare.org/deprivation-of-assets
    • Linton
    • By Linton 9th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    • 8,229 Posts
    • 8,101 Thanks
    Linton
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    Hi there,

    My dad now has dementia; the house was sold to pay for his care home fees. As I understand it, when a person's funds / assets drop to £14,250 they are entitled to keep what is left (including the pension pot?) - So with this in mind, I transferred the (£14,250) out dad's account (I am Lasting Power of Attorney) and in to one of my accounts (one which I don't actually use), knowing full well that debits made by the council from my dad's account would continue beyond that point.
    The council decided to have me investigated due to the stopped payments.
    Long story short, the OPG (Officer of the Public Guardian) investigating me found that my dad's money was intact and that I haven't been on spending sprees or abused it in any way. However, after almost a year of not paying any care fees on my dad's behalf, the council are now saying (based on their calculations of dad's assets are :-
    Please shed some light if the council are right in this matter to consider the following :
    1) dad’s funeral plan an 'asset' (£2,500)
    2) UNCLAIMED Attendance Allowance
    3) At what point do the council step in and cover dad’s care fees (if not at £14250)
    4) Any money in dad’s account now has accrued over the last 12 months and is his pension – How much of his monthly income are they entitled to? – I read that they shouldn’t be touching his pension

    Any advice would be welcomed!
    M
    Originally posted by Millie1982
    Hiding the £14250 was very foolish. I would be suprised and disapppointed if the OPG didnt come down on you hard. How could squirreling away some of your father's money into one of your personal accounts be meeting your legal duty to act in his best interests rather than yours? If not failing in your duty as an attorney perhaps it could be seen as attempted fraud.

    When you are thinking of doing anything with your father's money you should first ask yourself "How does father benefit? If there isnt an obvious simple answer, dont do it.

    As regards your questions. It seems to me...
    I cant see the funeral plan as an asset.
    Any unclaimed attendance allowance should be claimed on his behalf and paid to the council or care home. After all they are providing the "attendance".
    His pension income should be taken into account. The protection of the pension relates to pension capital which cant be accessed because for example he has yet to reach his pension age.,
    Last edited by Linton; 09-07-2017 at 2:29 PM.
    • ChesterDog
    • By ChesterDog 9th Jul 17, 5:41 PM
    • 772 Posts
    • 1,334 Thanks
    ChesterDog
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 5:41 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 5:41 PM
    Gosh yes.

    I have been in a similar position twice.

    You can't do (or appear to do) anything as an attorney which cannot easily be shown to be squeaky clean and entirely for your father's benefit.
    I am one of the "Dogs of the Index".
    • Zanderman
    • By Zanderman 9th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • 1,233 Posts
    • 3,622 Thanks
    Zanderman
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    Agree with most of the comments above. Sorry if this isn't the help you wanted!

    Hiding the £14k is a blatant misuse of LPA powers - and you should declare it soon as if it is found by other means you could be in trouble. LPA only allows you to act in your father's interests and hiding his money when he's in care isn't in his interest, it's only in yours.

    Funeral plans aren't an asset, you should claim attendance allowance and use it towards the care, and yes of course his pension is relevant and will be used to pay for care. It's his income (what else do you think it's for?).
    • veryintrigued
    • By veryintrigued 9th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    • 2,028 Posts
    • 1,267 Thanks
    veryintrigued
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    Do OPGs read these forums.....?
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 10th Jul 17, 12:18 AM
    • 3,585 Posts
    • 3,854 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    The correct procedure should have been to request a financial review when savings were approaching £23,250. This would have stopped him being fully self funded at the correct time. The LA can't tell the savings have been run found to that level unless you tell them

    You really should also have applied for attendance allowance as soon as he was on the point of needing care. Although not a lot it would have helped reduce the hit on savings a little bit.

    As far as I know you can't back claim AA, so they can't claim that or the funeral plan. What he should be paying is virtually all his income less a small allowance, plus £1 a week for each £250 he has saved between £14,250 and £23,250. It sounds like they have been unable to collect any of that because you failed to inform them of his change in circumstances and we're claiming more than he had left in his account, so he does owe a good amount of unpaid fees from his pension income plus back payment of the £1 per week per £250.

    You need to hold your hands up to the LA and say you fowlled up big time, and do a complete review of his current finances and settle any amount truely owed.

    You now need
    • Millie1982
    • By Millie1982 11th Jul 17, 8:11 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Millie1982
    Hiding the £14,250? You clearly misunderstood. Yes, I moved it INITIALLY to one of my accounts, then when I finally got to England (I live abroad) I was able to open another account at my dad's branch in his name (I had to go in with the original LPA even though they have a copy at the bank to do so), I wasn't able to do it online,it had to be in person.

    I'm guessing you don't know how hard it is to make contact with the 'right' person to speak to when your dad is fully funded and capable of making payments? So yes, I moved dad's money knowing full well, that once they thought his funds had dried up, someone would find the time to speak to me and I would eventually get a response, and hopefully some help me with my dad's situation. So, while you're quick to call me a thief and accuse me of 'squirreling', you know nothing of my struggle - I haven't touched ANY of my dad's money (I clearly stated that the OPG found that everthing was accounted for - if this was not the case, I wouldn't be LPA anymore, would I??
    I came back to the UK from previously living abroad because on a visit I noticed my dad couldn't read his watch, he taught me how to tell the time! I was 30 years old, no family, just dad and I. Social Services did NOTHING but pass the buck!I could not pin anyone down for answers / information - hence why I didn't initially claim Attendance Allowanc - because I didn't now what it was, how would I if no one was speaking to me or giving me necessary info! Would I have moved the £14,250 had someone reached out? No! Did I want the responsibility of being LPA? No!! But I did it because there was NO ONE ELSE!
    So the next time someone on here asks for help / advice, remember, be nice! everyone is fighting their OWN battle, something you know NOTHING about!
    • 6022tivo
    • By 6022tivo 11th Jul 17, 8:21 AM
    • 516 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    6022tivo
    It's complicated isn't it..
    I feel for you and I'm sending you hugs.. I know it doesn't help, but take care. x
    • Millie1982
    • By Millie1982 11th Jul 17, 8:25 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Millie1982
    Thanks for your response!
    As I have stated, the money is not hidden, it's long since been in one of dad's accounts, initially, I had to move it to one of mine as I live outside of the UK and had to go to dad's bank in person to do so!

    As for his pension, what I am trying to get at is how much of that goes on his care? All of it? Is it then my responsibility to pay out of my own pocket for all his needs, buy his clothes etc, I would have thought that would come out of his funds? If so, how is this fair? I'm jst starting my own business and it's not yet taken off.

    Sorry if I sound naive, but the only reason I am on this forum (and it's not to get abused) is because the people I should be able to access are unavailble! The only time they appeared was when they thought dad's money had dried up!
    • Millie1982
    • By Millie1982 11th Jul 17, 8:31 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Millie1982
    Thank you for your response! It was vey helpful and without judgement, very much appreciated on a very difficult situation for me. It's the hardest thing I've ever been through, without my husband, I know I wouldn't have been able to cope alone.
    • Millie1982
    • By Millie1982 11th Jul 17, 8:40 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Millie1982
    Thank you! I do love a good hug these days! X
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 11th Jul 17, 9:29 AM
    • 3,585 Posts
    • 3,854 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    Thanks for your response!
    As I have stated, the money is not hidden, it's long since been in one of dad's accounts, initially, I had to move it to one of mine as I live outside of the UK and had to go to dad's bank in person to do so!

    As for his pension, what I am trying to get at is how much of that goes on his care? All of it? Is it then my responsibility to pay out of my own pocket for all his needs, buy his clothes etc, I would have thought that would come out of his funds? If so, how is this fair? I'm jst starting my own business and it's not yet taken off.

    Sorry if I sound naive, but the only reason I am on this forum (and it's not to get abused) is because the people I should be able to access are unavailble! The only time they appeared was when they thought dad's money had dried up!
    Originally posted by Millie1982
    You might find the following link useful.

    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-care/care-homes/paying-for-permanent-residential-care/

    You are under no obligation to contribute to your father's care costs. As his savings have fallen below the level that he needs to fully fund his care costs, he now should be contributing all of his income with the exception of £24.90 per week. Unfortunately all savings over £14,250 are assumed to be worth £1 per week for each £250 over that limit.

    In my mother's case because her savings are around £22,000 the £1 a week rule means her entire pension payment goes to her care costs. Like most in residential care her expenses are quite small ( mainly hairdressing) but even then her savings are slowly falling

    Once you are no longer self funding the LA will carry out a financial review each year. As my mother's LPA I did this years review over the phone with them, but on previous years this was by post.

    Which LA is dealing with your father?
    • coyrls
    • By coyrls 11th Jul 17, 9:29 AM
    • 855 Posts
    • 869 Thanks
    coyrls
    I think your first stop should be Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB), they should be able to help you with the basics and point you in the right direction for the more complicated stuff.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 11th Jul 17, 12:12 PM
    • 22,881 Posts
    • 13,243 Thanks
    xylophone
    As I have stated, the money is not hidden, it's long since been in one of dad's accounts, initially, I had to move it to one of mine as I live outside of the UK and had to go to dad's bank in person to do so!
    Your post did not make the situation clear and at any event money belonging to your father should not have been moved into a savings account/bank account that belonged to you - it is not correct procedure for the Attorney.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 11th Jul 17, 5:40 PM
    • 8,238 Posts
    • 4,898 Thanks
    teddysmum
    I can see why the pension plan was considered as an asset: You get full top up on allowable income ,when down to £14250, so should be left with that for your beneficiaries, but surely part of that is to pay the funeral costs, which,in this case are paid.
    • cte1111
    • By cte1111 11th Jul 17, 6:01 PM
    • 7,142 Posts
    • 374,683 Thanks
    cte1111
    As for his pension, what I am trying to get at is how much of that goes on his care? All of it? Is it then my responsibility to pay out of my own pocket for all his needs, buy his clothes etc, I would have thought that would come out of his funds? If so, how is this fair? I'm jst starting my own business and it's not yet taken off.
    Originally posted by Millie1982
    As several previous posters have already stated, all of your Dad's income (state pension, private pension, any benefits, savings income, dividends), except for £24.90 will be expected to go towards paying for residential care. (Your Dad should have a financial assessment done by the council, which might find that some other expenses can be taken into account, e.g. bills on his old house, if it has not yet sold.)

    This Personal Expenses Allowance should be used to pay for clothes, toiletries, newspapers, haircuts, sweets and any other extras that your Dad wants or needs.

    There is lots of help online to show people which benefits to claim for themself or relatives with care needs:
    https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/benefits-you-can-claim-when-you-have-care-needs

    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-care/care-homes/paying-for-permanent-residential-care/

    It is very difficult becoming a carer overnight - I've had to do it for my Dad and Gran at the same time as bringing up my 2 children. So take advantage of the support that is available from Age Concern and other organisations.

    However I do think some of the problems have at least been exacerbated by your attitude towards paying for care, e.g. you don't seem to think you should have to. Your initial statement is that your Dad should have put this house into your name. This would have meant (if it had worked) that instead of his care being paid for from his own capital, the rest of us would have had to pay for it, just so you (who live abroad and presumably don't even pay tax in this country) can inherit a house. This is likely to get people's backs up and I think has resulted in the council taking a very harsh view. It is unusual of them to consider his funeral plan as an asset, for example.
    Last edited by cte1111; 11-07-2017 at 6:03 PM.
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