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  • FIRST POST
    • Tristan92
    • By Tristan92 8th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Tristan92
    Final Flight Training loan - First Timer
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 17, 5:56 PM
    Final Flight Training loan - First Timer 8th Jul 17 at 5:56 PM
    Hello everyone,

    This is my first post here and I've just come here for a bit of advice. I've recently finished all of my commercial flight training for my commercial pilots licence. I now work for an airline, and am on a programme that eventually leads to a flying position where I don't have to pay a penny. However, they are quite a small airline. I currently work in the office gaining good experience, but last week I went for another airline assessment. I applied for this said airline before applying for my current position and was successful (It's normal to apply and not hear anything for ages).

    The airline requires a further big amount of money to train on their specific aircraft, up front and I will not be paid until about 6 months after I finish my training. Having said that, this is a huge huge airline and is a fantastic opportunity that basically sets you up for your whole life ahead.

    I've never applied for a loan before, never been in debt and have I good monthly income from my current position. If I took this new opportunity I would also be getting a significantly better salary than I am at the moment which means I would be able to pay the debt off.

    So why have I come here? I have travelled round the internet briefly trying to see what loan packages there are out there but it seems that I wouldn't be eligible for a loan because I haven't applied for one before. How does that work? Surely, I'd be the perfect candidate for a loan with no debts..

    So I was just looking for some advice please. I unfortunately am not able to use my families funds for this which I understand, but I really need to lay my options (Loan Packages) out on the table to see if A) Can I actually do it? B) How much will I be paying back a month after my loan.

    Once again, totally new to this so all the acronyms and basics I have no clue about, APR etc etc.

    Would really appreciate some advice,

    Regards,
Page 1
    • zx81
    • By zx81 8th Jul 17, 6:08 PM
    • 13,208 Posts
    • 13,518 Thanks
    zx81
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:08 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:08 PM
    Not sure where you're getting your understanding from. But that's not correct.

    To get credit, you need the best credit history you can. Check your three credit files and report what is on there. Hopefully you'll have credit cards or something that demonstrates you can handled credit. Plus no late payments etc.

    Also answer the big question. What do you earn and how much are you looking to borrow?

    You'll also need to have been in your job for at least some months.
    • Tristan92
    • By Tristan92 8th Jul 17, 6:11 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Tristan92
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:11 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:11 PM
    Not sure where you're getting your understanding from. But that's not correct.

    To get credit, you need the best credit history you can. Check your three credit files and report what is on there. Hopefully you'll have credit cards or something that demonstrates you can handled credit. Plus no late payments etc.

    Also answer the big question. What do you earn and how much are you looking to borrow?

    You'll also need to have been in your job for at least some months.
    Originally posted by zx81
    I don't have any credit cards at all, I'm 24 and only have a Debit Card. I've had no need for a credit card? I earn a salary of £26,500 at the moment and looking to borrow approximately £35,000. That's to cover the course and living expenses etc until I get paid.
    • zx81
    • By zx81 8th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    • 13,208 Posts
    • 13,518 Thanks
    zx81
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    On that basis, the answer is almost certainly going to be no.

    You don't earn enough, would need a secured loan and you have no credit history.

    Get a card to start building a history, but there is no quick fix for this.
    • macman
    • By macman 8th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    • 41,290 Posts
    • 16,954 Thanks
    macman
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    Then the problem isn't your credit history-it's your lack of credit history. What lenders want to see is a record of credit being taken and repaid, on time, consistently. All you probably have in that respect is maybe a mobile phone contract.
    And you are looking to borrow about 18 month's salary-how do you intend to service such a loan in the meantime before a salary increase? And over how many years?
    Last edited by macman; 08-07-2017 at 6:20 PM.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • Alderbank
    • By Alderbank 8th Jul 17, 7:00 PM
    • 90 Posts
    • 90 Thanks
    Alderbank
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 17, 7:00 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 17, 7:00 PM
    ...And you are looking to borrow about 18 month's salary- how do you intend to service such a loan in the meantime before a salary increase? And over how many years?
    Originally posted by macman
    My reading is that the loan will not be serviced until 2019 at the earliest. The OP says that as soon as he secures the loan he will resign his current job to work full time unpaid for the big airline until they start to pay him in about 18 months time. I can't see any lender (except the Bank of Mum and Dad, which he has ruled out) agreeing to those terms.

    Tristan, you can't be the first to do this. How does the big airline suggest their recruits get the money to pay them and support yourself?
    • Tristan92
    • By Tristan92 8th Jul 17, 7:40 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Tristan92
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 17, 7:40 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 17, 7:40 PM
    My reading is that the loan will not be serviced until 2019 at the earliest. The OP says that as soon as he secures the loan he will resign his current job to work full time unpaid for the big airline until they start to pay him in about 18 months time. I can't see any lender (except the Bank of Mum and Dad, which he has ruled out) agreeing to those terms.

    Tristan, you can't be the first to do this. How does the big airline suggest their recruits get the money to pay them and support yourself?
    Originally posted by Alderbank
    I have not said that I won't be paid in the next 18 months... It will be approx 6 months.
    • coffeehound
    • By coffeehound 8th Jul 17, 8:14 PM
    • 1,232 Posts
    • 2,108 Thanks
    coffeehound
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:14 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:14 PM
    OP: how long would it be before you get an F/O position with small airways? £26k+ isn't so bad if it means you don't have to service a debt at the end. Perhaps worth spreadsheeting your projected income and debt with each route (assuming you obtained credit) to help with the decision?
    • Alderbank
    • By Alderbank 8th Jul 17, 8:15 PM
    • 90 Posts
    • 90 Thanks
    Alderbank
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:15 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:15 PM
    I have not said that I won't be paid in the next 18 months... It will be approx 6 months.
    Originally posted by Tristan92
    I apologise Tristan, you did indeed say 6 months.

    What did the big airline suggest you do?
    • Westminster
    • By Westminster 9th Jul 17, 6:42 AM
    • 785 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    Westminster
    My guess is you are talking about Ryanair.

    Unfortunately it will be very tricky for you to access these funds commercially- and I would not anticipate any sympathies from Ryanair over this. They have no difficulties filling their courses and their employment practices are shady at best:

    0-hour contracts using third party contract agencies such as Brookfield who require all the pilots to group with small numbers of pilots they never met to form limited companies who can only use one of the Brookfield approved accountancy firms. Your shiny new 0-hour contract then prohibits you from working for anyone else at the same time as dubiously side stepping any sickness / holiday pay / social security payments etc

    For you though, the real downer is that these 0-hour pilots do actually earn quite a significant sum. So your only & best hope is to find the money from inside your family.

    Good luck - loads of my friends went there and earned good money. They either had quick command upgrade or are now working for 'real' airlines. I was lucky enough to go directly to a real employer and despite moving several times, I've never had to pay for a type rating.

    Best of luck.
    Last edited by Westminster; 09-07-2017 at 6:45 AM.
    Hi. Martin has asked me to tell you I'm a Board Guide on the following boards: Mortgages & Endowments, Mortgage-Free Wannabe, House Buying, Renting & Selling, Small Biz & Charities' MoneySaving and Charities.

    I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts on there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
    • CKhalvashi
    • By CKhalvashi 9th Jul 17, 7:12 AM
    • 8,672 Posts
    • 24,414 Thanks
    CKhalvashi
    I now work for an airline, and am on a programme that eventually leads to a flying position where I don't have to pay a penny.
    Originally posted by Tristan92
    So, you won't have to pay a penny but are thinking of going onto a pay to fly scheme?

    However, they are quite a small airline.
    I'm assuming I know who this is. Is it a charter carrier with a base in the South, that has many blue 737s flying from it? If yes, I'd recommend staying there, not going onto a PTF scheme where you could be based anywhere in Europe at a drop of a hats notice.

    I'd also hazard a guess (if I've guessed the company you're working for now) from circulating rumours that you could be looking at the 3-4 year command you'd get at the PTF carrier.

    I currently work in the office gaining good experience, but last week I went for another airline assessment. I applied for this said airline before applying for my current position and was successful (It's normal to apply and not hear anything for ages).
    That's normal anywhere.

    The airline requires a further big amount of money to train on their specific aircraft, up front and I will not be paid until about 6 months after I finish my training. Having said that, this is a huge huge airline and is a fantastic opportunity that basically sets you up for your whole life ahead.
    But you get your 738 command and then what? The company in question don't do Long Haul. Assuming from your username you're about 25, can you see yourself buzzing around Europe for the next 40 years being happy? That said, you'll be home every night on a stable roster, which can be a lot better for family life.

    I've never applied for a loan before, never been in debt and have I good monthly income from my current position. If I took this new opportunity I would also be getting a significantly better salary than I am at the moment which means I would be able to pay the debt off.
    You haven't got the job yet. Is the PTF scheme for a contract or permanent position? Not having had credit in the past may be a problem.

    So why have I come here? I have travelled round the internet briefly trying to see what loan packages there are out there but it seems that I wouldn't be eligible for a loan because I haven't applied for one before. How does that work? Surely, I'd be the perfect candidate for a loan with no debts.
    You're not the perfect candidate as you've got no real credit history. A pilot-specific site would be a much better one to try, however I doubt anyone over there would be able to help too.

    So I was just looking for some advice please. I unfortunately am not able to use my families funds for this which I understand, but I really need to lay my options (Loan Packages) out on the table to see if A) Can I actually do it? B) How much will I be paying back a month after my loan.
    It depends what the TR and the living costs are for 6 months. A TR for both the 73NG and A320 family are retailing at about €15k on the open market. If you have an offer from an airline to pay for it (as I assume from your opening post) then fantastic. If they are, expect to be bonded for 3-4 years.

    Once again, totally new to this so all the acronyms and basics I have no clue about, APR etc etc.
    APR is Annual Percentage Rate. A 1% APR on a £10k non-reducing debt is 1% of £10k or £100. The lower the number the better, however the rate you'd get (assuming someone would fund it, which is unlikely) is unlikely to be good at all.

    Would really appreciate some advice,

    Regards
    Yes, don't pay stupid money to fly a nice shiny 737 for 200 hours. You should be paid to work, not the other way around.

    Cityflyer are always looking, as are (at the moment) Jet2 (although not sure of the scheme but believe it's bonded) and smaller airlines like Titan, who have (in the last few months) taken delivery of another 2 aircraft.

    Again, not sure on Jet2, but believe the other 2 won't charge stupid money for a type rating.

    Can I just point out (before anyone accuses me of being harsh) that I wish OP best of luck in whatever he chooses, however I'm against PTF schemes as I don't believe good enough = able to pay. It just messes up the job prospects of those (like OP) that aren't in a position to find the money upfront.
    "I kada sanjamo san, nek bude hiljadu raznih boja" (L. Stamenkovic)

    Call me Remainer or Romaniac, but not Remoaner. It's insulting and I have the right to have my voice heard too.

    I can spell, my iPad can't.
    • Sncjw
    • By Sncjw 9th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    • 1,429 Posts
    • 859 Thanks
    Sncjw
    No way anyone would loan you that amount of money on your wage.

    Why won't the airline pay for your training. If they really wanted you they would do so. I wouldn't work for someone for free. How are you expected to fund your living costs
    • Westminster
    • By Westminster 9th Jul 17, 2:42 PM
    • 785 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    Westminster
    No way anyone would loan you that amount of money on your wage.

    Why won't the airline pay for your training. If they really wanted you they would do so. I wouldn't work for someone for free. How are you expected to fund your living costs
    Originally posted by Sncjw
    The whole business model of low cost carriers is to shave every possible cost.

    In fact they profit from those desperate to fly by selling a £15k course for £25k to enable the various 'hopefuls' to put raybans on and boast.

    Think about that next time you book a £5 flight .... one of the pilots up front probably has around £130k of debt and will only get paid if they turn up ... you better hope they are not ill but really need to pay off the car loan for their fancy car so they can show off to their so-called facebook friends.
    Last edited by Westminster; 09-07-2017 at 2:44 PM.
    Hi. Martin has asked me to tell you I'm a Board Guide on the following boards: Mortgages & Endowments, Mortgage-Free Wannabe, House Buying, Renting & Selling, Small Biz & Charities' MoneySaving and Charities.

    I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts on there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
    • Tristan92
    • By Tristan92 9th Jul 17, 10:04 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Tristan92
    Hi Everyone who has posted above,

    Thank you so much for all your replies and advice, it's been very very helpful. I am continuing to look at ways of getting a loan but as you all said above, it is going to be very tricky as:
    1) I have never taken a loan out before
    2) Have no solid credit score
    3) Have no credit card.

    It's only because this was the airline I wished about flying for since an incredibly young age, and to now have that opportunity (albeit at a cost..) is something pretty incredible, and very proud of myself for getting that far.

    If I had it my way, I wouldn't pay for the training but sadly you have to to get that position, so I'm still looking around for options but this definitely doesn't mean I am going to go down that route.

    The trouble with this airline is it a contract position, technically zero-hours contract and no guarantee of hours. Having said that.. 1000's of pilots who have gone through this route are flying approx 850-900 hours a year. They cannot fly more than 900 a year, and because of this once you reach that limit you have to take a month off unpaid.

    I'm very much against PTF schemes out there, but this was just an amazing opportunity that I never thought I would've had only a few weeks ago!

    I will start another thread about this, but I'm definitely considering getting a credit card for myself having never had one before. By doing this as you suggested, I can start building up my credit score for anything that I need to take a loan out for in the future. This I hope will strengthen any application I may submit as it will show I can borrow and pay back.

    Thank's for your replies everyone, it is much appreciated.
    • Sncjw
    • By Sncjw 9th Jul 17, 10:06 PM
    • 1,429 Posts
    • 859 Thanks
    Sncjw
    The loan amount is huge compared to how much you earn not many people will get a loan for more than they earn
    • zx81
    • By zx81 9th Jul 17, 10:09 PM
    • 13,208 Posts
    • 13,518 Thanks
    zx81
    One thing you must understand is that the credit score scores the CRAs sell you is in no way related to how lenders view you.

    Get a card, use it regularly and clear in full each month. Ignore your credit score when it drops like a stone.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 10th Jul 17, 2:04 AM
    • 1,058 Posts
    • 668 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    The OP's problem is that just after taking out the loan for the training course, they stop earning ; so have to also borrowing living expenses, plus the loan payments, for that time.

    If you can't get the loan, make sure you explain that to the potential employer ; even if they can't help, they might keep your offer on file until you can get the money together.
    • Arleen
    • By Arleen 10th Jul 17, 4:36 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    Arleen
    Hi Everyone who has posted above,

    Thank you so much for all your replies and advice, it's been very very helpful. I am continuing to look at ways of getting a loan but as you all said above, it is going to be very tricky as:
    1) I have never taken a loan out before
    2) Have no solid credit score
    3) Have no credit card.

    It's only because this was the airline I wished about flying for since an incredibly young age, and to now have that opportunity (albeit at a cost..) is something pretty incredible, and very proud of myself for getting that far.

    If I had it my way, I wouldn't pay for the training but sadly you have to to get that position, so I'm still looking around for options but this definitely doesn't mean I am going to go down that route.

    The trouble with this airline is it a contract position, technically zero-hours contract and no guarantee of hours. Having said that.. 1000's of pilots who have gone through this route are flying approx 850-900 hours a year. They cannot fly more than 900 a year, and because of this once you reach that limit you have to take a month off unpaid.

    I'm very much against PTF schemes out there, but this was just an amazing opportunity that I never thought I would've had only a few weeks ago!

    I will start another thread about this, but I'm definitely considering getting a credit card for myself having never had one before. By doing this as you suggested, I can start building up my credit score for anything that I need to take a loan out for in the future. This I hope will strengthen any application I may submit as it will show I can borrow and pay back.

    Thank's for your replies everyone, it is much appreciated.
    Originally posted by Tristan92
    Problem with that approach is that by the time your credit will be good enough for this type of a loan (talking years here) you could have all the money you need saved up, so also save yourself on the interest. So while building credit history is good on it's own, as long as done for free, simply start saving hard for that dream of yours.
    • Westminster
    • By Westminster 10th Jul 17, 6:06 AM
    • 785 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    Westminster
    Having said that.. 1000's of pilots who have gone through this route are flying approx 850-900 hours a year.
    Several friends of mine found themselves in bases that were so busy (usually the training bases) that they only ended up with 600-650 hours.

    This is a significant reduction in earnings from the maximum potential so you may wish to be prudent and not assume you will max out your flying hours when calculating what your repayment plan could look like.
    Hi. Martin has asked me to tell you I'm a Board Guide on the following boards: Mortgages & Endowments, Mortgage-Free Wannabe, House Buying, Renting & Selling, Small Biz & Charities' MoneySaving and Charities.

    I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts on there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
    • CKhalvashi
    • By CKhalvashi 10th Jul 17, 6:24 AM
    • 8,672 Posts
    • 24,414 Thanks
    CKhalvashi
    Several friends of mine found themselves in bases that were so busy (usually the training bases) that they only ended up with 600-650 hours.

    This is a significant reduction in earnings from the maximum potential so you may wish to be prudent and not assume you will max out your flying hours when calculating what your repayment plan could look like.
    Originally posted by Westminster
    Plus aircraft can be removed from a base with not a lot of notice. They did it in Denmark and I believe STN lost at least 2 last winter, one to OTP and another to somewhere in Italy.

    As rightly pointed out, with contractor status there is the potential to earn more but also to earn less.

    In addition to yesterday, Wizz are also looking for crews to be based at Luton at the moment. I believe a TR and base training is IRO £12k, with the option to pay it from salary for slightly more. It's another airline with quick commands and a stable roster if that's what you're looking for.

    Salary is €20k + €50ish/day + €27/sector for the first 1500 hours, so count on about £35k/year, £50k/year as SFO. Whether London rates will be higher I don't know, however I'd guess so.
    "I kada sanjamo san, nek bude hiljadu raznih boja" (L. Stamenkovic)

    Call me Remainer or Romaniac, but not Remoaner. It's insulting and I have the right to have my voice heard too.

    I can spell, my iPad can't.
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