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  • FIRST POST
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 8:02 AM
    • 10Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Pay and display patrolled car parks
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:02 AM
    Pay and display patrolled car parks 8th Jul 17 at 8:02 AM
    Hi everyone,

    I'm a little bit confused about how these car parks work-I'm talking about the ones that are pay and display and are also the licence plate recognition type. It seems if you get a parking charge it is based solely on the licence plate recognition and NOT on the pay and display ticket. Does this not render the whole pay and DISPLAY part pointless? Why would a car park require a driver to display their ticket if they are going to send out charges solely on licence plates and not even look at the displayed ticket at the time? Once the driver has paid and entered their licence plate number, it seems they could eat their ticket since the calculation of payment and stay will be based solely on how much was paid (licence plate and payment recorded on machine) and how long the camera says the car was parked for. This is in contradiction to the terms of pay and display surely?

    As a driver, if these are the terms of the car park do you not reasonably expect it to be patrolled and to be given a fine on the actual day if you have not paid/overstayed? Isn't that the point in pay and display? It seems in fact the car park is not patrolled otherwise the driver could've expected a big "fine" on their windscreen.

    Surely if you leave a car park having followed the instructions and not received a fine, you can assume that you did not breach any terms and conditions. The company is surely then wholly unreasonable to issue a fine through the post days later-especially if the signs state the car park IS patrolled and failure to pay and display will result in a fine . The driver will most likely have discarded the ticket by the time the charge comes through and therefore would have NO proof to dispute the charge.

    Additionally, signs state that cameras are recording number plates and length of stay but not the reason WHY (ie to send a charge to the keeper later). Therefore the driver can only assume a charge would happen on the day as they would not know the reason for the recording of the number plates, and as already stated-the driver is lead to believe the charges are given out as a result of patrols at the time of parking, not by any other means. Is this a good point to make to help get a charge cancelled?
Page 2
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Jul 17, 10:10 PM
    • 13,638 Posts
    • 21,393 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I mean these guys are so unscrupulous-what's to stop them doctoring their own records
    Surely you can't seriously mean that? Scurrilous accusation!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229165/Is-PROOF-private-parking-firms-scamming-motorists-Drivers-say-timings-photos-doctored-legally-parked-cars-issued-fines.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35253759

    Oh, wait ........
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 11:45 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Use of ANPR itself is enough to generate a parking charge, let alone trying to confuse it by paying or attempting to pay twice.

    The UK Gov recognises that ANPR is seriously flawed and has prohibited its use in local government, councils, and local authority car parks as a result.

    The cynic in me (and I'm sure many others) is that the parking scammers use ANPR because the known flaws generate their best income.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    This maybe what happened-the machine would not work after entering reg, so the driver paid using another machine-licence plate entered twice, one showing non-payment (but it shouldn't even have gone through since no ticket was printed) and they should have evidence on other machine of payment. Not drivers fault-no reason to think machine wouldnt work-you enter reg number in first before you pay. Heard of it a few times where machine is not accepting cards.

    Ok thanks Guys Dad, I get your point, makes sense-I've got my answer now on whether I can use that as an appeal point or not-I won't use it. I can definitely use the bit with the link Edna gave me about the signs not making it clear what they are using photos of licence plates for though?

    Umkomaas-haha thanks for the links! Not surprised at all.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 9th Jul 17, 8:53 PM
    • 633 Posts
    • 395 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    just as they cannot "fine" you , they cannot issue a "penalty" notice either
    A slip of the mind, sorry.

    Once the driver has paid and entered their licence plate number
    I only see that system on about 1 in 100 car parks I visit.

    licence plate and payment recorded on machine
    I'm guessing there is ( almost ) never an electronic record, the printing on the ticket is to stop it getting passed on.

    I think the rules on Council PCNs are that putting a "notice" on the car is the default, and needs a reasonable excuse not to do so. Private companies don't have to do that, and a sentence mentioning them and the word "reasonable", is likely to do so in the negative.

    The delay of several days allows them to clean / relocate / install the necessary signage.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 10:13 PM
    • 14,800 Posts
    • 18,615 Thanks
    Redx


    I only see that system on about 1 in 100 car parks I visit.


    I'm guessing there is ( almost ) never an electronic record, the printing on the ticket is to stop it getting passed on.

    I think the rules on Council PCNs are that putting a "notice" on the car is the default, and needs a reasonable excuse not to do so. Private companies don't have to do that, and a sentence mentioning them and the word "reasonable", is likely to do so in the negative.

    The delay of several days allows them to clean / relocate / install the necessary signage.
    Originally posted by Geoff1963

    come to manchester , you will find loads of pay and display car parks where ANPR cameras also operate and the machines send the data back to "head office" for correlation , even if a ticket is actually printed with the VRM on it (to try to stop a free transfer as you say)

    excel car parks usually have both , like

    PEEL CENTRE STOCKPORT
    CHORLTON PRECINCT
    GALA BINGO , ASHTON RETAIL PARK , ASHTON UNDER LYNE

    and when SMART had the ASDA contract , their system required the VRM on the ticket plus ANPR cameras monitoring the entrance/exit (PE have got it now with a similar scenario)

    others supermarkets and businesses require registration to be made inside the premises too (no printed ticket and usually not pay and display either)

    its also pay and display with paper tickets + ANPR at STEPPING HILL hospital , Stockport (Horizon I think)

    try our trains or tram system , plenty of pay and display etc on those , with cameras too (you wont find many with no cameras here)

    the point is that they try to sc@m you at every opportunity , so the more hurdles they put in your way , the more profit they make

    and I suggest you stop "guessing" , facts win the day , an electronic record is usually kept for data protection etc , the payment ticket is your receipt for the contract , so they keep an electronic record for their side of the contract , same as a shop will have their own till receipt , never mind yours (even a pub is supposed to provide till receipts for the beer you buy)

    the several days of delay is for them to process the data , obtain keeper details from the DVLA via the KADOE contract and send out a postal pcn !!!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 10th Jul 17, 6:43 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Many car parks both ANPR controlled & manually patrolled are pay & display but also have the option of pay by phone where clearly no ticket can be displayed.
    Originally posted by nigelbb
    I had forgotten the option to pay by phone-I have never paid by phone for a ticket-of course you wouldn't have to display a ticket then, I hadn't thought of that. But, I think in this case the patrols check the car reg. with their handheld machine so that's how they know whether the driver paid or not, so essentially it's not too different than pay and display. They could then issue a PCN at the time if there was no record of the licence plate.

    The point is that even if the car park is patrolled, it is totally unreasonable to assume that the warden can check all cars within, say, a 5 minute cycle Or even 10 minutes.

    So it is perfectly feasible that someone's time could expire when he was elsewhere in his monitoring cycle.

    Let's move the scenario to a hospital. Someone is on a monitor but also nurses have a 30 minute round and are continuously on the cycle. So why have a monitor on the patient as well? Because the patient could have trouble when the nurse was elsewhere on her round.

    Perhaps not the best analogy, but nevertheless it shows where two methods for monitoring a siuation are perfectly reasonable.
    Ok I get what you're saying and can see why they would have two methods for monitoring, however for arguments sake, let's say we are not talking about a time period of 5 or 10 minutes but a much longer period of time. What if the alleged breaching of terms and conditions is for a few hours -plenty of time for a vehicle to be checked onsite on the day and issued with a PCN before the driver leaves the car park. And how often in general, can a driver assume patrols are being made in a typical day if their signs state the car park is patrolled and failure to pay will result in a PCN?
    Last edited by Kat_2017; 10-07-2017 at 6:47 AM. Reason: adding info
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 12th Jul 17, 10:40 PM
    • 633 Posts
    • 395 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    the machines send the data back to "head office"
    they try to sc@m you at every opportunity
    Printing the VRN on the ticket prevents transferring, which is clearly a benefit to the parking company. An electronic record that a ticket was bought for a particular VRN, by contrast, hinders the parking company in their attempt to scam money out of those who've paid ; so I can't see why they would choose to do that.
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