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  • FIRST POST
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 8:02 AM
    • 10Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Pay and display patrolled car parks
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:02 AM
    Pay and display patrolled car parks 8th Jul 17 at 8:02 AM
    Hi everyone,

    I'm a little bit confused about how these car parks work-I'm talking about the ones that are pay and display and are also the licence plate recognition type. It seems if you get a parking charge it is based solely on the licence plate recognition and NOT on the pay and display ticket. Does this not render the whole pay and DISPLAY part pointless? Why would a car park require a driver to display their ticket if they are going to send out charges solely on licence plates and not even look at the displayed ticket at the time? Once the driver has paid and entered their licence plate number, it seems they could eat their ticket since the calculation of payment and stay will be based solely on how much was paid (licence plate and payment recorded on machine) and how long the camera says the car was parked for. This is in contradiction to the terms of pay and display surely?

    As a driver, if these are the terms of the car park do you not reasonably expect it to be patrolled and to be given a fine on the actual day if you have not paid/overstayed? Isn't that the point in pay and display? It seems in fact the car park is not patrolled otherwise the driver could've expected a big "fine" on their windscreen.

    Surely if you leave a car park having followed the instructions and not received a fine, you can assume that you did not breach any terms and conditions. The company is surely then wholly unreasonable to issue a fine through the post days later-especially if the signs state the car park IS patrolled and failure to pay and display will result in a fine . The driver will most likely have discarded the ticket by the time the charge comes through and therefore would have NO proof to dispute the charge.

    Additionally, signs state that cameras are recording number plates and length of stay but not the reason WHY (ie to send a charge to the keeper later). Therefore the driver can only assume a charge would happen on the day as they would not know the reason for the recording of the number plates, and as already stated-the driver is lead to believe the charges are given out as a result of patrols at the time of parking, not by any other means. Is this a good point to make to help get a charge cancelled?
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Jul 17, 8:34 AM
    • 6,698 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:34 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 17, 8:34 AM
    I am struggling to see your point here.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Jul 17, 9:20 AM
    • 39,748 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 9:20 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 9:20 AM
    It is not a fine.

    The private parking industry is unregulated so trying to understand anything about it is a waste of time other than to know that all they want is your money and will try to confuse and bully the average motorist in order to get it. Unfortunately most of the time this works.

    The law allows them to send out PCNs after the alleged parking event.

    Have you read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES? This will explain a lot of things concerning the private parking business model, and how to fight unfair parking charges.

    Tell all your friends and family to read it as well so they know what to do should they fall foul of this disgusting industry.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 8th Jul 17, 9:22 AM
    • 1,922 Posts
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    nigelbb
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 9:22 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 9:22 AM
    Many car parks both ANPR controlled & manually patrolled are pay & display but also have the option of pay by phone where clearly no ticket can be displayed.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 10:35 AM
    • 10 Posts
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    Kat_2017
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:35 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:35 AM
    Fruitcake-I know it's not a fine, I meant to call it a charge the whole time but slipped into calling it a "fine" a couple times. Yes read newbies thread, lots of very helpful info there. Guess I just thought I could add to that info, stupid musings really I suppose-especially if no one sees my point haha! It seemed a fair point to me. Nevermind, I will be using it myself, if it doesn't work at the first stage (probably not) I'll be using it at POPLA stage- just thought I could help myself and others out if I got some ideas on whether it would be a good appeal point-I guess the "I am struggling to see your point here" would lean towards not...
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    • 13,626 Posts
    • 21,373 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:45 AM
    I think we'd all love a 'Eureka' point as a showstopper, but the reality is regulars live and breathe this stuff every day of the week - and for many years.

    I think we've been through every nook and cranny of private parking/contract law to exhaustion. But it's good that you are thinking outside the usual newbie box, which is often confined to 'help, help, yelp I've got a parking fine' - followed by dozens of exclamation marks !
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 17, 10:54 AM
    ^^ Haha good point Umkomaas, I do bow to the superior knowledge on here of course, it was just a thought. I have already basically put together a popla appeal using the info here, I've been studying this site and everything I can read about it for the past few days- that was just an extra point (and was hoping it would also get it cancelled before it got to popla) wont hold my breath though...
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Jul 17, 11:32 AM
    • 9,995 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 17, 11:32 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 17, 11:32 AM
    What exactly offence were you charged with - not displaying a ticket or over staying or what? If Not displaying a ticket, then they need photographic evidence of that? Have they sent that and why no windscreen ticket?

    Not altogether clear what your appeal poiint is, I am afraid. Sorry.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 8th Jul 17, 11:55 AM
    • 541 Posts
    • 1,415 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 17, 11:55 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 17, 11:55 AM
    Kat - I understand the point you're making and depending on what is written on the car park signs, it can be a valid one to include in a submission to POPLA.

    POPLA appeals have been won on the basis that an operator did not comply with Paragraph 21.1 of the BPA Code of Practice i.e. You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.

    Euro Car Parks are a good example of an operator with confusing signs. Even though a car park may be ANPR-controlled, their signs explain that a "Pay & Display" ticket must be displayed. Their signs advise motorists to enter their vehicle registration number when purchasing a P & D ticket - however, the signs do not state that failure to do so will result in a PCN being issued. This means that their ANPR evidence is insufficient to prove that a breach worthy of a PCN occurred.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 12:07 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Guys Dad-Parking was paid for but ran over a few minutes. The ticket was displayed-but no one came round to check it, therefore it was assumed upon leaving that no terms and conditions had been breached seeing as it said it was patrolled and failure to pay and display correctly would result in a fine (you would presume at the time). Not until over a week later did a charge arrive through post saying driver had not paid the full time based solely on the machine and licence plate recognition. Pay and display ticket long gone by then.

    My point being that if it's pay and display and patrolled, a charge should've been given on the day-isn't that the whole point of DISPLAY-so that someone can go round and check you paid via the ticket? Upon leaving most would discard the ticket, so they have no proof they paid and displayed-maybe a tactic by the parking companies, anyway I wanted to dispute the terms and conditions of the "pay and display" basically.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 12:08 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Kat - I understand the point you're making and depending on what is written on the car park signs, it can be a valid one to include in a submission to POPLA.

    POPLA appeals have been won on the basis that an operator did not comply with Paragraph 21.1 of the BPA Code of Practice i.e. You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.

    Euro Car Parks are a good example of an operator with confusing signs. Even though a car park may be ANPR-controlled, their signs explain that a "Pay & Display" ticket must be displayed. Their signs advise motorists to enter their vehicle registration number when purchasing a P & D ticket - however, the signs do not state that failure to do so will result in a PCN being issued. This means that their ANPR evidence is insufficient to prove that a breach worthy of a PCN occurred.
    Originally posted by Edna Basher
    That is EXACTLY what I'm trying to get at-thank you!
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 8th Jul 17, 12:58 PM
    • 3,654 Posts
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    Half_way
    Displaying a ticket in a Pay and display car park with ANPR+input registration number gives you a receipt of payment,.
    More importantly its also another revenue stream for thye PPC, if the decide to send someone to inspect the car park, they can issue parking charge notices if you havent displayed the ticket according to their made up rules - ie tickets must be placed on the dashboard, on the drivers side, so if you place the ticket on the dashboard - on the passenger side that'll be £100 thank you very much.

    Instead of getting into the inns and outs too much, have you received a parking charge notice? and if so what for? what parking company issued it? and in who's car park?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 8th Jul 17, 1:58 PM
    • 618 Posts
    • 386 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    a charge should've been given on the day . . . Upon leaving most would discard the ticket, so they have no proof they paid and displayed
    If they want to "charge" you for not displaying, they should take a photograph.

    Being able to produce a ticket which was valid for the time ( unless it has the registration number ) doesn't prove that was the one bought for that vehicle. If they always put a penalty notice on the car, it would be easy enough to flag down someone leaving, and buy their ticket off them.

    I agree with the OP that parking companies are a bunch of sharks , I'm trying to preempt the argument that they would make.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Jul 17, 6:36 PM
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    Guys Dad
    You will lose on the point you are concentrating on. I understand now the point you are making but having a "belt and braces" system, if I can refer to it as such, is not in contravention of anything in POFA or a PPC CoP.

    In fact, printing a ticket tells the motorist when they must be back by.

    Just how over time were you, as there may be some wriggle room on Grace periods?
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 7:18 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Half_way, there is no receipt of payment when the keeper gets a fine through the post over a week later-that's what I'm trying to get at, the driver should've been given a charge on the day-after fulfilling the terms and conditions (pay and display) and leaving the car park, they should then be able to safely assume that their has been no breach. It's Euro, yes there is a charge for overstaying-but the charge goes by number plate recognition of when the car left the car park. I don't know who's car park just a city centre one (not for a shop or hospital if thats what you mean)

    Geoff-pretty sure the licence plate is stated on the ticket.

    Guys dad-yes well the thing is-the driver had to queue to get out the car park, so they had finished parking and the licence plate recorded when they left the car park (which took longer than expected) so that's where the charge comes in-the minute the driver entered and left the car park is how the charge applies not based on the pay and display ticket. So using cameras is not an accurate way of determining how long a driver was parked. Furthermore, the signs state the car park is patrolled and a fine will be issued if not paying and displaying. It says they use cameras to determine peoples stay but not WHY, so a driver can only assume if they are going to get a charge it will be on the day and can't know they are going to use number plate recognition to issue a charge later on-so the driver didn't enter into that contract with the operator. Basically what Edna put for the point I'm trying to make about the signs. I dont think the company ever patrols the car park they try and get you on the cameras later on.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Jul 17, 7:38 PM
    • 14,790 Posts
    • 18,604 Thanks
    Redx
    If they want to "charge" you for not displaying, they should take a photograph.

    Being able to produce a ticket which was valid for the time ( unless it has the registration number ) doesn't prove that was the one bought for that vehicle. If they always put a penalty notice on the car, it would be easy enough to flag down someone leaving, and buy their ticket off them.

    .
    Originally posted by Geoff1963
    they cannot and wont do this for one simple reason

    just as they cannot "fine" you , they cannot issue a "penalty" notice either

    the one thing they CAN do is issue a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE, that is the exact wording that is used, but the common term for this is INVOICE , which is why we tell people its not a "fine" and not a "penalty" and I for one can never understand why people use those words , whereas to me a bucket is a bucket , not a pail , not a container , its a bucket (and in private parking its a PARKING Charge Notice , or INVOICE)

    far too many incorrect words being used in this thread , which does not and will not help at popla or in a court of law

    I saw QI recently where they said the english language was one of the hardest to learn in the world , at over half a million words , whereas german was something like a third in total

    as for not having the paid for ticket a week later (like say EXCEL at the infamous PEEL CENTRE) , they actually do foot patrols there looking for people in blue badge bays , or wheels over the line , tickets not displayed properly etc

    but its primarily an ANPR controlled car park where the occupant of a vehicle purchases a ticket and puts in the VRM (anything could br put in at this point , and has been , or nothing at all) and failures trigger a pcn in the post a week or more later (doesnt matter about any foot patrols) - this site has featured on tv , in the papers and parking pranksters blogs many times in the last 6 years

    but most sites are not foot patrolled , so ANPR and possibly ticket machines or entry units inside businesses etc do the work, usually the customer is doing that validation work (in a cinema , or supermarket , or gym , or swimming pool , or restaurant , or hotel , etc)

    here is what MSE said recently about that particular topic about pay and display tickets

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/team-blog/2017/05/30/throwing-pay-display-ticket-away-use-cost-100/
    Last edited by Redx; 09-07-2017 at 10:03 PM. Reason: spelling
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 9:18 PM
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    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Red-I think people naturally assume it's a "fine" when they first get it, not having dealt with anything similar before. I know it's a bug bear of the people on the forum to have people call it a "fine" or penalty or whatever and having to correct them- I for one will be incredibly careful at the popla level with the words I use if it does reach that. I think we all understand what everyone means though, it's a private car park so it's not a fine but an invoice/charge whatever. They're trying to get money out of people that's the bottom line.

    Thanks for the link that is the sort of thing I was after-VERY interesting thanks! Like that link says VERY important for one to keep hold of their ticket for a few weeks. I mean these guys are so unscrupulous-what's to stop them doctoring their own records and claiming the driver didn't pay at all? If the ticket has been thrown away driver has no proof.
    • Kat_2017
    • By Kat_2017 8th Jul 17, 9:27 PM
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    • 11 Thanks
    Kat_2017
    Out of interest-what happens in the case of entering a licence plate twice? say if you entered a licence plate number on one machine but realised you couldn't pay the correct amount. Left to get the correct change and then went to another machine, entered reg again and paid? I'm now thinking that might be what the parking charge is about rather than overstaying (only overstayed by a few mins so think the grace period should cover that) The first machine is recording licence plate but no payment...even though it was paid with the same licence plate on another machine, is that enough to screw their system up and get you a charge?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Jul 17, 9:33 PM
    • 39,748 Posts
    • 79,554 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Use of ANPR itself is enough to generate a parking charge, let alone trying to confuse it by paying or attempting to pay twice.

    The UK Gov recognises that ANPR is seriously flawed and has prohibited its use in local government, councils, and local authority car parks as a result.

    The cynic in me (and I'm sure many others) is that the parking scammers use ANPR because the known flaws generate their best income.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Jul 17, 9:34 PM
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    Guys Dad
    The point is that even if the car park is patrolled, it is totally unreasonable to assume that the warden can check all cars within, say, a 5 minute cycle Or even 10 minutes.

    So it is perfectly feasible that someone's time could expire when he was elsewhere in his monitoring cycle.

    Let's move the scenario to a hospital. Someone is on a monitor but also nurses have a 30 minute round and are continuously on the cycle. So why have a monitor on the patient as well? Because the patient could have trouble when the nurse was elsewhere on her round.

    Perhaps not the best analogy, but nevertheless it shows where two methods for monitoring a siuation are perfectly reasonable.
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