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  • FIRST POST
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    • 25Posts
    • 18Thanks
    samb0b
    Smart (or dumb?) parking - help with pcn
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    Smart (or dumb?) parking - help with pcn 7th Jul 17 at 9:43 AM
    Hi All,

    I have read the Newbies thread, but still need a little bit of advice before corresponding with dumb parking. If anyone would be so kind as to assist I would be most grateful.

    I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and the PCN is addressed to me, but I am not the only person who drives the car.

    The location on the letter simply states "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK" no other location info at all.

    The only info I can find online is that Toscana Retail Park is in Bangor, Ireland. I live in West Yorkshire...both myself and the vehicle have never been to Ireland.

    The newbies thread suggests to first get in touch with the land owner, but there is no conclusive info for "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK" that I can find.

    I am hesitant to contact them to get this information without asking on here first.

    I am also hesitant to send the "Template appeal for BPA members" as this suggests I am arguing with their signage before the location has been established.

    Many thanks in advance!
Page 2
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 15th Jul 17, 2:15 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    *** UPDATE ***

    They replied to my email saying:

    "Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    We have taken note in what you have said , but to take this further you will need to make an appeal either online on our website LINK REMOVED or send this in writing via post to the below address.

    Please also submit any evidence you wish to show with the appeal."

    So I have replied back:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

    I find it interesting how you dealt with and cancelled the original PCN TC4540988A when writing to you at this email address, yet for this following related PCN TC45502794 (where you have simply amended the alleged contravention location) you are asking me to appeal via your website or post.

    It would appear that you have a double standard when dealing with complaints / appeals and are purposely trying to hinder or delay my complaint / appeal.

    I must inform you that by doing so you are causing my family and I further undue anxiety and distress. I should add that should this matter go any further this will be highlighted and addressed appropriately.

    I will go through your appeals process on your website, but I wish for this complaint to be noted with David Dunford, BPA, and the DVLA.

    Yours,
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Jul 17, 2:28 PM
    • 7,654 Posts
    • 7,914 Thanks
    pappa golf
    *** UPDATE ***

    They replied to my email saying:

    "Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    We have taken note in what you have said , but to take this further you will need to make an appeal either online on our website LINK REMOVED or send this in writing via post to the below address.

    Please also submit any evidence you wish to show with the appeal."

    So I have replied back:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

    I find it interesting how you dealt with and cancelled the original PCN TC4540988A when writing to you at this email address, yet for this following related PCN TC45502794 (where you have simply amended the alleged contravention location) you are asking me to appeal via your website or post.

    It would appear that you have a double standard when dealing with complaints / appeals and are purposely trying to hinder or delay my complaint / appeal.

    I must inform you that by doing so you are causing my family and I further undue anxiety and distress. I should add that should this matter go any further this will be highlighted and addressed appropriately.

    I will go through your appeals process on your website, but I wish for this complaint to be noted with David Dunford, BPA, and the DVLA.

    Yours,
    Originally posted by samb0b

    "they" will not note it , you must"

    PS: David Dunford, is employed by the DVLA
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 15th Jul 17, 2:52 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Yes, I meant the DVLA in general, not just David Dunford.

    Not sure what you mean by "they" will not note it , you must" ?

    I have noted it. It's permanently in my mailbox.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Jul 17, 3:10 PM
    • 7,654 Posts
    • 7,914 Thanks
    pappa golf
    have you MADE a formal complaint to the 3 parties you state?
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 15th Jul 17, 3:28 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Not as of yet, I'm still battling the most recent PCN,,, should I raise a separate complaint with the 3 parities and if so now or after the outcome of this complaint with smart parking?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Jul 17, 3:38 PM
    • 7,654 Posts
    • 7,914 Thanks
    pappa golf
    2 cases , 2 locations = false info in replies ,
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 15th Jul 17, 3:46 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Forgive me for being dense, please can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Jul 17, 3:54 PM
    • 7,654 Posts
    • 7,914 Thanks
    pappa golf
    you started with one ticket , location in NI , then moved to a second ticket , I was reading your inital posting , only to be told "Not as of yet, I'm still battling the most recent PCN,"

    as the initial ticket has been sorted , edit your post to reflect newer case , or start a new thread with company and location
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 15th Jul 17, 6:01 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Apologies for the confusion.

    The first PCN they had put the location as "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK", the second PCN is identical except they have changed the PCN number and the location to "SALTAIRE, BRADFORD"

    This is all relevant to the original post so I do not feel the need to make a new thread. Thank you.
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 15th Jul 17, 6:14 PM
    • 7,155 Posts
    • 5,559 Thanks
    daveyjp
    Paper has an update and it looks like even those who followed the 'rules' are now getting tickets.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jul 17, 9:19 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    All you need to do is forward your email and attach evidence for David Dunford. It doesn't read that you copied him in (sorry if you already did).

    And send a written complaint to your local Trading Standards, no phone calls. A formal complaint about this re-issuing of a PCN after cancelling the one with a NI address.

    Does the second one say that the keeper will be liable after 28/29 days? If so, that's misleading, a lie, because it was served far too late. Lay this on thick and in clear language for Trading Standards and Mr Dunford.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 11th Aug 17, 1:15 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Just an update. Smart (Dumb) Parking have cancelled the PCN (see their response below).

    Big thanks to all who have assisted on this and for the people who help on these forums to provide the community with all of this information.

    Although you may not always see it, you are providing an invaluable service to your fellow man/woman to which I am extremely grateful. I may have struggled in my fight vs this greedy, unscrupulous parking company otherwise. I applaud you all


    "Dear Mr

    Parking Charge Notice Number : TC45502794

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    I have noted the points you raised and would like to confirm that we are cancelling the Parking Charge Notice.

    If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.


    Yours sincerely,

    Smart Parking Ltd"
    • Suey101
    • By Suey101 11th Aug 17, 2:17 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Suey101
    Hi,

    Sorry I'm not sure if I should be writing here. I need advice on a parking charge notice I received on 14th June from Capital Car Park Control. I emailed them on 14 th June and they directed me to their website. I filled the form in on their website to appeal. I didn't hear back from them. My dad received a Notice to keeper as I'm only insured on the vehicle. I called them to say you haven't been in touch but they said they haven't received my form and I don't have any way to prove it. I live in flats and I have a car park bay that is allocated to me. I pay for parking and I also have a fob that lets me in the car park. Their issue is that my bay number card was not displayed! They observed the vehicle for 10 minutes. Is there something I can do? I am paying for this space already.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 11th Aug 17, 2:23 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    I think you may want to start your own thread, label it appropriately and put all the info in there as clearly as possible to assist others in helping you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Aug 17, 2:31 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi,

    Sorry I'm not sure if I should be writing here. I need advice on a parking charge notice I received on 14th June from Capital Car Park Control. I emailed them on 14 th June and they directed me to their website. I filled the form in on their website to appeal. I didn't hear back from them. My dad received a Notice to keeper as I'm only insured on the vehicle. I called them to say you haven't been in touch but they said they haven't received my form and I don't have any way to prove it. I live in flats and I have a car park bay that is allocated to me. I pay for parking and I also have a fob that lets me in the car park. Their issue is that my bay number card was not displayed! They observed the vehicle for 10 minutes. Is there something I can do? I am paying for this space already.
    Originally posted by Suey101
    You need to start your own thread after reading other 'own space' threads telling you how to fightback by addressing a complaint to the landowner/agent. Never mind the appeal.

    Look at the threads by hairray, and Daniel san. Please don't ask for links, have a look and find out how the forum works, how to look up member names then click on them to read their threads.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Aug 17, 2:32 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just an update. Smart (Dumb) Parking have cancelled the PCN (see their response below).

    Big thanks to all who have assisted on this and for the people who help on these forums to provide the community with all of this information.

    Although you may not always see it, you are providing an invaluable service to your fellow man/woman to which I am extremely grateful. I may have struggled in my fight vs this greedy, unscrupulous parking company otherwise. I applaud you all


    "Dear Mr

    Parking Charge Notice Number : TC45502794

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    I have noted the points you raised and would like to confirm that we are cancelling the Parking Charge Notice.

    If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.


    Yours sincerely,

    Smart Parking Ltd"
    Originally posted by samb0b
    Nice one! Did you complain to the DVLA or not?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 11th Aug 17, 2:48 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Not directly, can you help with that? I'm not sure exactly what to say.

    I did cc the DVLA into all of the correspondence, including the most recent email complaint / appeal to Smart Parking as well as AOS Investigations Team - British Parking Association.

    Here is a full thread of my latest emails.

    to: info@smartparking.com
    cc: aos@britishparking.co.uk,
    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk,
    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    date: 13 July 2017 at 20:07
    subject: "SMART PARKING" Parking Charge Notice TC45502794

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Regarding your recent parking charge notice dated 11/07/2017

    This is in relation to an alleged contravention dated 25/06/2017

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Furthermore, please note that it has been more than 15 days since the date of alleged contravention so as POFA 2012 has not been followed, as keeper of the vehicle I am not liable and you should chase up the DRIVER, who shall not be named.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Info
    14 Jul

    to me
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    We have taken note in what you have said , but to take this further you will need to make an appeal either online on our website www.smartparking.com or send this in writing via post to the below address.

    Please also submit any evidence you wish to show with the appeal.

    Smart Parking Ltd
    Unit 43 Elmdon Trading Estate
    Bickenhill Lane
    Marston Green
    Birmingham
    B37 7HE

    The info@smartparking.com email address is for general enquiries only.

    Kind Regards,

    Smart Parking Ltd
    Telephone: 08452303081
    Email: info@smartparking.com
    Website: www.smartparking.com

    Re: "SMART PARKING" Parking Charge Notice TC45502794 & TC4540988A Complaint
    Inbox
    x

    14 Jul

    to Info, aos, FOI, david.dunford
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

    I find it interesting how you dealt with and cancelled the original PCN TC4540988A when writing to you at this email address, yet for this following related PCN TC45502794 (where you have simply amended the alleged contravention location) you are asking me to appeal via your website or post.

    It would appear that you have a double standard when dealing with complaints / appeals and are purposely trying to hinder or delay my complaint / appeal.

    I must inform you that by doing so you are causing my family and I further undue anxiety and distress. I should add that should this matter go any further this will be highlighted and addressed appropriately.

    I will go through your appeals process on your website, but I wish for this complaint to be noted with David Dunford, BPA, and the DVLA.

    Yours,


    On 14 July 2017 at 11:17, Info <info@smartparking.com> wrote:
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    We have taken note in what you have said , but to take this further you will need to make an appeal either online on our website www.smartparking.com or send this in writing via post to the below address.

    Please also submit any evidence you wish to show with the appeal.

    Smart Parking Ltd
    Unit 43 Elmdon Trading Estate
    Bickenhill Lane
    Marston Green
    Birmingham
    B37 7HE

    The info@smartparking.com email address is for general enquiries only.

    Kind Regards,

    Smart Parking Ltd
    Telephone: 08452303081
    Email: info@smartparking.com
    Website: www.smartparking.com
    FBlinkedintwitter


    AOS
    19 Jul

    to me
    Good morning,

    Thank you for your email.

    As a membership association we are only able to address enquiries in relation to alleged non-compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. We are not set up to deal with disputes from the general public about parking or control. Nor are we a regulatory body. Therefore, the Code does not provide a way for a driver to challenge how a landowner or operator has applied parking control and enforcement on private land. We will not get involved in the arbitration of a dispute between an operator and an individual.

    All appeals are a matter of the landowner’s or operator’s procedure with the option of taking it to POPLA and or the courts. The BPA has no authority to intervene in these processes. As such, we would advise that in this instance, the operator has outlined how an appeal can be made, and should you wish to appeal the Parking Charge Notice, these appeal methods should be followed.

    We cannot advise there to have been a breach in this instance and as such we are unable to assist you further.

    Yours Sincerely,

    [Removed]
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk

    cid:image001.jpg@01CC52C5.F7D86250

    AOS JPEG logoKYPR-rgbcid:image008.jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580cid:image009. jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580SPS JPEG landscapecid:image011.jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580
    http://tashandtanya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Twitter-Logo.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/F_icon.svg/2000px-F_icon.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/LinkedIn_logo_initials.png/768px-LinkedIn_logo_initials.png http://www.thememorialtournament.com/assets/img/play-button.png IIP_GOLD_19
    P Think of the environment - do you need to print this email?

    Legal Disclaimers
    British Parking Association Registered in London with Limited Liability.
    Registered No. 979689. Registered Office: Stuart House, 41 - 43
    Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath, West Sussex RH16 3BN
    VAT Registration No. GB 600 3376

    Sent: 14 July 2017 11:55
    To: Info <info@smartparking.com>
    Cc: AOS <aos@britishparking.co.uk>; FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk; david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    Subject: Re: "SMART PARKING" Parking Charge Notice TC45502794 & TC4540988A Complaint

    21 Jul

    to AOS, FOI, david.dunford
    Dear [Removed],

    Thank you for your reply.

    Would you be so kind as to give this matter a review as I believe there is a possibility that Smart Parking may have been non-compliant with the BPA Code of Practice.


    I received a PCN TC4540988A dated 04/07/17 alleging a contravention for my vehicle on 25/06/17 with the location named as TOSCANA RETAIL PARK

    I wrote to them to inform them I had never been to TOSCANA RETAIL PARK (This is in Ireland). They then sent me a letter cancelling this PCN.

    I then received the very next day, a new PCN TC45502794 dated 11/07/2017 alleging the same contravention for my vehicle on 25/06/17, this time with the location as SALTAIRE, BRADFORD.

    1) It would appear that they have obtained my details and used them in the first PCN which was incorrect. (I'm not sure this is legal?)

    2) They have then used my details to issue another PCN 17 days after the alleged contravention, which gives no detailed specifics of location. I must add that this PCN is identical to the first, albeit with different issue date and location info.


    Please can you clarify if this is compliant with the BPA code of practice?

    Yours,

    On 19 July 2017 at 09:18, AOS <aos@britishparking.co.uk> wrote:
    Good morning,

    Thank you for your email.

    As a membership association we are only able to address enquiries in relation to alleged non-compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. We are not set up to deal with disputes from the general public about parking or control. Nor are we a regulatory body. Therefore, the Code does not provide a way for a driver to challenge how a landowner or operator has applied parking control and enforcement on private land. We will not get involved in the arbitration of a dispute between an operator and an individual.

    All appeals are a matter of the landowner’s or operator’s procedure with the option of taking it to POPLA and or the courts. The BPA has no authority to intervene in these processes. As such, we would advise that in this instance, the operator has outlined how an appeal can be made, and should you wish to appeal the Parking Charge Notice, these appeal methods should be followed.

    We cannot advise there to have been a breach in this instance and as such we are unable to assist you further.

    Yours Sincerely,

    [Removed]
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk

    cid:image001.jpg@01CC52C5.F7D86250

    AOS JPEG logoKYPR-rgbcid:image008.jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580cid:image009. jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580SPS JPEG landscapecid:image011.jpg@01D1D5E5.8FFBB580
    http://tashandtanya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Twitter-Logo.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/F_icon.svg/2000px-F_icon.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/LinkedIn_logo_initials.png/768px-LinkedIn_logo_initials.png http://www.thememorialtournament.com/assets/img/play-button.png IIP_GOLD_19
    P Think of the environment - do you need to print this email?

    Legal Disclaimers
    British Parking Association Registered in London with Limited Liability.
    Registered No. 979689. Registered Office: Stuart House, 41 - 43
    Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath, West Sussex RH16 3BN
    VAT Registration No. GB 600 3376


    AOS
    25 Jul

    to me
    Dear ,

    Thank you for your email.

    Smart Parking Limited have made us aware that due to an internal system error a number of parking charge notices had been issued with the incorrect location date.

    To rectify this issue it was agreed that Smart Parking Limited must make the motorist aware of the error and cancel the charge. The charge could then be reissued with the correct location.

    A parking charge notice must only be issued within 14 days if the operator is utilising the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. If the operator makes no mention to the legislation the 14 day timescale would not be applicable.

    Yours Sincerely,

    Esme Berry
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 01-09-2017 at 8:59 PM.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 11th Aug 17, 2:59 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    The irony in all of this is that I did end up appealing on their website as they refused to deal with it via email complaint (using exactly the same letter/wording) and they replied with cancellation by email!

    The previous PCN complaint (identical to this one just with incorrect location) that I appealed / compainted via email was addressed and a letter of cancellation was sent out via post.

    The whole thing stinks of mediocre money exploitation from the general motorist and they are just raking it in from those who perhaps don't have the time, energy or know how to challenge it.

    They need to be challenged and I will do anything I can to help. PM me if you want to get in contact to with me and I am happy to help in the fight against unscrupulous parking companies like this.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 11th Aug 17, 3:02 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    Nice one! Did you complain to the DVLA or not?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Is there a template I can use to contact the DVLA to complain about them using my info? I also believe you can sue them for illegal access of personal details?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Aug 17, 3:02 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think by copying in the DVLA that was enough for Mr Dunford to see (he may well have got involved asking the BPA behind the scenes, what was going on with this batch of PCNs).

    I would complain to your MP (please do, every complaint helps MPs see this scam industry).

    Ask why is it that, if a Council had issued a real PCN with a wrong location it would be fatal to the enforcement of the charge, and it would 100% have to be cancelled and would go nowhere. Yet in the case of the cowboy private parking industry, they demand TWICE as much as a Council £50 PCN, make the rules up as they go along and in your case the BPA is aware of this batch of erroneous PCNs from Smart Parking, but has agreed that they can re-issue them to victims with a new location on. Drivers do not get the same courtesy (e.g. if they make a typo in the VRN at a P&D machine, they are told 'tough' by any private firm, if they appeal). Why is it this industry is riding roughshod over the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and continue to use well-documented unfair business practices, and are fully supported by the BPA in doing so? The BPA like to be misconstrued as regulators when it suits them (e.g. by the DCLG, or in the ParkingEye v Beavis case) but are quick to point out when consumers complain that they are 'NOT a regulator so get lost' to the general public.

    I would send a major complaint to your MP about this entire batch and ask him/her to find out if Smart have accepted money from some victims and not cancelled them, and why they were 'allowed' to re-issue them.

    Ask your MP to read this:

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-03-21/debates/382789C8-0168-4C4B-8260-0540AF83C7D3/DVLAAndPrivateCarParkingCompanies

    and as k him/her to support this Bill, ONLY if it reins in this rotten industry, rather than legitimises the cowboys:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72971855#post72971855

    HTH
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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