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  • FIRST POST
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    • 25Posts
    • 18Thanks
    samb0b
    Smart (or dumb?) parking - help with pcn
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 17, 9:43 AM
    Smart (or dumb?) parking - help with pcn 7th Jul 17 at 9:43 AM
    Hi All,

    I have read the Newbies thread, but still need a little bit of advice before corresponding with dumb parking. If anyone would be so kind as to assist I would be most grateful.

    I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and the PCN is addressed to me, but I am not the only person who drives the car.

    The location on the letter simply states "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK" no other location info at all.

    The only info I can find online is that Toscana Retail Park is in Bangor, Ireland. I live in West Yorkshire...both myself and the vehicle have never been to Ireland.

    The newbies thread suggests to first get in touch with the land owner, but there is no conclusive info for "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK" that I can find.

    I am hesitant to contact them to get this information without asking on here first.

    I am also hesitant to send the "Template appeal for BPA members" as this suggests I am arguing with their signage before the location has been established.

    Many thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jul 17, 10:08 AM
    • 14,925 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:08 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:08 AM
    Smart Parking do operate in NI. I can find no previous Smart/Toscana cases on this forum (or in a Google search).

    Does the NtK show photos of the car? Can you read the VRM plate. Is this a case of an incorrect transcription of the VRM which has elicited your data from the DVLA rather than that of the person whose car was actually parked at Toscana?

    I would write a strong letter of complaint to Smart, telling them that neither you nor your car have been anywhere near this car park in NI and ask them to double check their information and inform you of the outcome of their check. Ensure you copy your complaint to the BPA and David Dunford of the DVLA (mark each letter with a list of the recipients of your cc, so none of them can deny knowledge of this).

    Once Smart come back with an apology, you will then issue a Letter of Claim for £250 (maybe more) for the incorrect use of your personal data by breaching the Data Protection Act principle. They have 'previous'.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/smart-parking-settle-out-of-court-for.html

    You will inform both the BPA and the DVLA of the Smart response and ask that punitive sanctions are implemented against Smart.

    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA can be emailed to:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    or (if posting)

    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN

    and DVLA:

    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Please come back and keep us informed of progress.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 07-07-2017 at 10:10 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 10:13 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:13 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:13 AM
    Yes, the PCN does clearly show the registration of my vehicle. Do you think I should I still proceed as you have advised? Many thanks!
    Last edited by samb0b; 07-07-2017 at 10:25 AM.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 17, 10:55 AM
    I have gone ahead and emailed dumb parking, including a cc to aos@britishparking.co.uk, FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk & david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I would like to raise a complaint regarding a letter I have received from your company containing a "PCN" alleging an "unauthorised parking" contravention at the location "TOSCANA RETAIL PARK" demanding payment of £100.

    The letter did not detail any further location information so I have looked up TOSCANA RETAIL PARK on line and have found that it is a retail park in Bangor, Northern Ireland

    I HAD PUT LINKS TO LOCATION FROM GOOGLE HERE - (It wouldn't let me post the web addresses as I am a new user)

    I can assure you that I have never been to Northern Ireland, let alone this retail park.

    I am outraged that I have received this correspondence, including the incorrect use of my personal data. This has caused my wife and I, undue stress and anxiety.

    I can only assume that your company has made an error, and I trust you will address this promptly.

    I look forward to your speedy reply.

    Yours
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jul 17, 11:00 AM
    • 14,925 Posts
    • 23,432 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:00 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:00 AM
    Yes, the PCN does clearly show the registration of my vehicle. Do you think I should I still proceed as you have advised? Many thanks!
    Originally posted by samb0b
    ANPR camera pictures are sometimes digitally enhanced automatically by the software. Can you determine whether the car in the photo is the same make and model as yours?

    You must proceed with your complaint. Tell them that it would have been a physical impossibility for your car to have been in NI that day. Do you know where you and your car actually were? Do you have a dash cam with footage? Do you have a smartphone because some actually track your movements? Do you have a witness(es) who can vouch for you and your car's whereabouts?

    If you have any of the above, I'd just put in the complaint that you have irrefutable proof that you were not in (and have never been to) NI.

    Does your VRM include any digits that could possibly be misread (3 can sometimes look like an 8 from certain angles, a C a G, and so on)?

    The other possibility might be that it's been a simple error by Smart in identifying the car park. Were you in a Smart run car park that day nearer to home? Maybe they've just put the wrong address in. If that's the case, they will not be able/allowed to correct that, and you'll win an appeal (probably at the POPLA stage).

    Just keep the foregoing paragraph up your sleeve at the moment - don't offer it to Smart, just see what they come up with in the context of NI.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 07-07-2017 at 11:03 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 11:31 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:31 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:31 AM
    Yes, I am 100% confident that I can prove that I or the car was not in NI that day! (I've never been to Ireland!)

    The reg does contain S's and 5's which I guess could be misread, but even from the small grainy black and white pictures they have included, it does look like my car I must admit.

    After talking to my wife I think I know which car park it may have been. There is now a SMART in my local village which was previously council owned / run.

    However, the letter does not give any details of this whatsoever, so I believe I have taken the correct course of action.

    I will update once they get back to me with a response.

    many thanks for your time and advice!
    • Rob Ashford
    • By Rob Ashford 7th Jul 17, 11:43 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Rob Ashford
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:43 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:43 AM
    I think it might be the coop car park in Saltaire as it has changed form Bradford council.
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 7th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    • #8
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Jul 17, 11:49 AM
    Possibly. I will wait to see what their response is as they should have included basic location information.
    • Lengrant
    • By Lengrant 9th Jul 17, 11:10 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Lengrant
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:10 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:10 PM
    I've just got my second pcn through for "Toscana retail park" in the space of a few days, probably more to follow. I will be sending the same emails as I've never been there.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 11:18 PM
    • 14,925 Posts
    • 23,432 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I've just got my second pcn through for "Toscana retail park" in the space of a few days, probably more to follow. I will be sending the same emails as I've never been there.
    Originally posted by Lengrant
    Seems like there's a problem at Smart HQ here. Could suggest the need for a complaint to the DVLA and BPA.

    No due care applied in the issuing of these tickets. They just throw the pebble into the pond, then it's entirely down to the motorist to deal with the erupting wave-swell.

    No conscience, no responsibility, no shame, just pay us the money!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 12:26 AM
    • 50,660 Posts
    • 64,054 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I've just got my second pcn through for "Toscana retail park" in the space of a few days, probably more to follow. I will be sending the same emails as I've never been there.
    Originally posted by Lengrant
    Seriously, you both - you and the OP - need to also APPEAL, not just email, unless that is a valid method of appeal to Smart, is it? Just checking.

    Do not say who was driving, but appeal as keeper in the way the PCN tells you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Jul 17, 7:26 AM
    • 7,160 Posts
    • 6,206 Thanks
    The Deep
    Surely, if they have issued a ticket for a breach in NI and you have never been there it is game over for the PPC. If they persist issue a claim for wrongful acquisition of data.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 10th Jul 17, 8:27 AM
    • 7,086 Posts
    • 5,479 Thanks
    daveyjp
    I think it might be the coop car park in Saltaire as it has changed form Bradford council.
    Originally posted by Rob Ashford
    This one?

    http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15397970.Motorists_hit_out_in_car_park_row/
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 13th Jul 17, 5:23 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    ***UPDATE***

    I received a letter yesterday saying that the PCN (alleged contravention 25/06/17) had been cancelled. No apology, just that it had been cancelled....although an apology would have been nice, I was happy that I did not have to fight any further.

    Or so it seemed....

    Today I got another letter from them with new a PCN, dated 11/07/17 with the same pictures, this time stating the location as Saltaire, Bradford!

    I'm quite annoyed by this and am looking for some more advice if possible?

    many thanks
    Last edited by samb0b; 13-07-2017 at 5:26 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jul 17, 5:29 PM
    • 16,063 Posts
    • 20,100 Thanks
    Redx
    appeal using the blue text template in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    do not say who was driving

    if there have been more than 15 days from the alleged date of the "contravention" , add a note stating that

    As POFA2012 has not been followed , as keeper of the vehicle I am not liable and you should chase up the DRIVER , who shall not be named
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 13th Jul 17, 5:32 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    ok, thank you I will do that.

    Should I follow the below advice (posted previously above by another member) for the previous incorrect;y issued PCN that they have cancelled?

    "Once Smart come back with an apology, you will then issue a Letter of Claim for £250 (maybe more) for the incorrect use of your personal data by breaching the Data Protection Act principle. They have 'previous'.

    LINK REMOVED

    You will inform both the BPA and the DVLA of the Smart response and ask that punitive sanctions are implemented against Smart. "
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jul 17, 6:00 PM
    • 16,063 Posts
    • 20,100 Thanks
    Redx
    you would need to email the DVLA and get proof of that

    if the error is internal, and they have corrected it , then for now this one takes precedence

    so assuming they have reissued the original contravention with the amended location , all its done is delay the new pcn , which after 15 days would work in your favour , hence my reply

    chances are they accessed the data once, then issued incorrect paperwork which they have now corrected, so I do not believe thay have accessed your data twice
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 13th Jul 17, 6:04 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    something seems a bit contradictory between the blue text template and the POFA 2012 note you have advised me to add Redx? please see below draft of letter:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Regarding your most recent parking charge notice dated 11/07/2017

    This is in relation to an alleged contravention dated 25/06/2017

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Furthermore, please note that it has been more than 15 days since the date of alleged contravention so as POFA 2012 has not been followed, as keeper of the vehicle I am not liable and you should chase up the DRIVER, who shall not be named.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.


    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by samb0b; 13-07-2017 at 6:09 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jul 17, 6:13 PM
    • 16,063 Posts
    • 20,100 Thanks
    Redx
    that is the point , if they are relying on POFA2012, plus if they have failed it by getting the NTK to the RK after day 14 , you are advising them of that fact

    ie:- they are relying on it , yet have apparently failed it ???????????

    if you can think of better wording , use it , but dont blow your toes off

    only you know if they failed the 14 day rule on the new NTK , because you have not told us , but it seems to me that they failed with the new NTK

    change the DVLA part to past tense too

    as in

    Should you have obtained the
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • samb0b
    • By samb0b 13th Jul 17, 8:04 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    samb0b
    yes, they have failed it. the alleged contravention was 25/06/2017 and this new PCN is dated 11/07/17 so that's 17 days.

    I have read about POFA 2012 a bit more now and think I understand it better.

    I have changed that bit of wording to past tense and sent so let's see what they come back with.

    Thanks for your help!
    Last edited by samb0b; 13-07-2017 at 8:07 PM.
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