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  • FIRST POST
    • cybervic
    • By cybervic 6th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    • 347Posts
    • 519Thanks
    cybervic
    help please, staying over move-out date.
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:01 PM
    help please, staying over move-out date. 6th Jul 17 at 12:01 PM
    In April, we received a notice by agent that asking us to leave on 19/July (landlady is moving back). We then found a place end of May for us to move in on 15/July. We were told last week that the future landlord received a buying offer he can't refuse so we have to look for another place instead.

    I then informed my current agent last week there is a chance we may not be able to move out before as per the notice stated, and this morning we received an email from agent saying "your landlady sympathises with your situation, however, if vacant possession is not given at the end of the tenancy, she will have no other option then to go to courts to seek possession through eviction."

    My partner and I have already taken days off this week to look for a place. We think we should be to move out by 1st week of August the latest (and of course we will be paying the extra rent accordingly). We have never missed any rent and have always been a good tenant looking after the place and never causing any trouble. Will we be evicted on 19/July? Will lose our deposit because we overstayed? What kind of trouble we will get into if we could not move out before 19/July? am very worry whats gonna happen so would appreciate any advice please.

    Thank you.
Page 2
    • aneary
    • By aneary 10th Jul 17, 3:31 PM
    • 487 Posts
    • 342 Thanks
    aneary
    A section 21 is a notice of eviction not an eviction they still have to take you to court to evict you.

    'Please be advised that some letting agents are not familiar with the legal process'
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Jul 17, 3:32 PM
    • 15,074 Posts
    • 13,389 Thanks
    AdrianC
    We’ve spoken with our head office regarding the notice and unfortunately Section 21 notice can not be amended or extended.
    Originally posted by cybervic
    True, but they're just notice of intent.

    I’ve further looked at the details on our system and I can see that notice was served at the end of April 2017 which would have given you 3 months to make arrangements to move on the specified tenancy end date.
    So the s21 expired at the end of June?

    I understand that moving houses is stressful and things sometimes do not work out as planned, however the landlady is in her 90s and she has made arrangements to move back into her property.
    Frankly, that's not really your problem - and seems to be an attempt to emotionally blackmail you.

    Please be advised that some tenants are not familiar with the legal process and therefore we had to make you aware that there is a possibility of the landlord going to court.
    Yes, they can. But only once the notice has expired... And it's not an instant process, by a long chalk. No way will possession be granted within three weeks from the expiry of notice.

    Will lose our deposit because we overstayed?
    You will be liable for any reasonable costs they incur in possession proceedings, on top of any other deposit deductions that might be valid. If you can persuade them to hold fire on the proceedings, so much the better for everybody.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 10-07-2017 at 3:39 PM.
    • DumbMuscle
    • By DumbMuscle 10th Jul 17, 3:39 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 290 Thanks
    DumbMuscle
    Thank you everyone for a very positive feedback. We have now found a place that is available to move in on 22/July, (subject to referencing), we have paid the deposit, so we looking to check out on 26/July (leaving 4 overlap days to clean and restore the flat properly.)

    However, We have received another email from our agent just now and basically said the we can't have any extension. I am about to inform them that we can check out on 26/July. Can anyone advice if I am doing the right thing? If they say no, what can I do? Here is the letter:

    -------------
    We’ve spoken with our head office regarding the notice and unfortunately Section 21 notice can not be amended or extended.

    I’ve further looked at the details on our system and I can see that notice was served at the end of April 2017 which would have given you 3 months to make arrangements to move on the specified tenancy end date. I understand that moving houses is stressful and things sometimes do not work out as planned, however the landlady is in her 90s and she has made arrangements to move back into her property. Please be advised that some tenants are not familiar with the legal process and therefore we had to make you aware that there is a possibility of the landlord going to court.

    There is no restriction when it comes to overriding the landlord’s notice. Provided the tenancy is not in a fixed term then one months notice can be served in line with the rent due date.

    I hope you can find somewhere soon, if you wanted us to speak with our Hove office to see if they have anything available to rent in the areas please do let us know.

    --------------------------
    Originally posted by cybervic
    A response along the lines of "we are aware that the landlord can start proceedings against us. We are also aware that we cannot be removed from the house until those proceedings are complete. We therefore believe that it would be in the best interest of all concerned to agree a mutual surrender of the tenancy on 26 July (which we will be happy to do once we have signed the contract on our new flat), and save the landlord unnecessary court costs."

    If you're feeling sarcastic "I understand that moving house is stressful and things do not always work out as planned, however the landlady has no right to take posession of the property unless we either agree a mutual surrender of the tenancy, or a court judgement is obtained and properly enforced."

    You are doing the right thing. Get the contract on the new place signed ASAP, and give your 1 month notice under the statutory tenancy the day before it begins (i.e. on the last day of your fixed term). That way, the worst the LL can do is to hold you to the full first month of the SPT - but you will both want to negotiate a mutual surrender on the 26th anyway.

    Might be worth speaking to the LA's Hove office - you'd be in a good negotiating position to get fees waived!
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 11th Jul 17, 10:37 AM
    • 768 Posts
    • 505 Thanks
    saajan_12
    If you have the new property confirmed starting 22 July, write a clear letter to stating your intent to leave on 26 July and asking for a mutual surrender.

    While you can stay beyond a Section 21 notice, you would be liable for reasonable costs to evict you such as the LL's court filing fees. Your letter would be your best argument against paying these fees, as you were willing to leave 7 days after the expiry of the notice, so it may not be considered reasonable for the LL to incur court repossession fees as that would take longer than 7 days.
    • cybervic
    • By cybervic 19th Jul 17, 10:56 AM
    • 347 Posts
    • 519 Thanks
    cybervic
    So we have passed referring and we are now looking to return the property to landlady on 25th. Estate agent wouldn't let us book a check-out service (via third party) despite being told we intend to leave on 25th. They said if they let us book the check out, it would means they agree to let us stay until 25th and they can't do that because it's against Landlady's wish and also we technically need to give one month notice.

    They told us to just hand in the key to them once we are done with the flat, they will then book a check-out service.

    Should we just do as told? Thanks.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 19th Jul 17, 11:01 AM
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    Red-Squirrel
    Make sure you get it in writing that they have told you its ok to leave and hand the keys back on the 25th, and take lots of photos of the place before you leave.

    Disappointing to see yet another letting agent that haven't got a clue what they're doing. They're probably telling the poor 90 year old landlady a load of rubbish and misleading her too.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 19th Jul 17, 11:23 AM
    • 768 Posts
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    saajan_12
    So we have passed referring and we are now looking to return the property to landlady on 25th. Estate agent wouldn't let us book a check-out service (via third party) despite being told we intend to leave on 25th. They said if they let us book the check out, it would means they agree to let us stay until 25th and they can't do that because it's against Landlady's wish and also we technically need to give one month notice.

    They told us to just hand in the key to them once we are done with the flat, they will then book a check-out service.

    Should we just do as told? Thanks.
    Originally posted by cybervic
    Re notice/rent: are you within the fixed term still, or have you served 1 tenancy period's notice? Technically you are liable for the rent until the expiry of the notice (or end of the fixed term if you leave by that date). You don't have a right to pro rata rent within tenancy periods as ultimately you chose to leave.

    As for leaving, you don't have an automatic right to book or attend the check out (unless your last tenancy agreement states otherwise). However, you should take photos of the whole property once you have emptied and cleaned it, as evidence to refute any potential damages claims.
    Last edited by saajan_12; 19-07-2017 at 11:26 AM.
    • DumbMuscle
    • By DumbMuscle 19th Jul 17, 11:47 AM
    • 196 Posts
    • 290 Thanks
    DumbMuscle
    Give your one month notice, but do so with a note that you are willing to mutuall surrender the tenancy on the 25th subject to certain conditions. While you don't have a right to pro-rata rent or to attend the checkout, they don't have a right to get you out of the house or get the keys off you until the end of your 1 month notice or until they get a court order (and having extra time to move can be useful, if you'd be liable for the rent either way...), so that's open to negotiation.

    A letter (to the LL, copied to the LA) along the lines of "this is our one month notice. We would be willing to negotiate surrender of the tenancy between 25 July or the expiry of this notice, subject to being allowed to attend the check-out and to rent for the final month being pro-rata to the time we occupied the property."

    You can stay until the 25th anyway, so the LA's excuse is nonsense.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 19th Jul 17, 12:04 PM
    • 1,622 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    Give your one month notice, but do so with a note that you are willing to mutuall surrender the tenancy on the 25th subject to certain conditions. While you don't have a right to pro-rata rent or to attend the checkout, they don't have a right to get you out of the house or get the keys off you until the end of your 1 month notice or until they get a court order (and having extra time to move can be useful, if you'd be liable for the rent either way...), so that's open to negotiation.

    A letter (to the LL, copied to the LA) along the lines of "this is our one month notice. We would be willing to negotiate surrender of the tenancy between 25 July or the expiry of this notice, subject to being allowed to attend the check-out and to rent for the final month being pro-rata to the time we occupied the property."

    You can stay until the 25th anyway, so the LA's excuse is nonsense.
    Originally posted by DumbMuscle

    Is it necessary to give the notice? They had a section 21 with a date of the 19th, had fully intended to move out to coincide with that and had been in regular communication with the agent about the fact that they were delayed slightly by circumstances beyond their control. Surely all that communication and the agents statement that they can drop their keys off on the 25th constitutes a mutual agreement that the tenancy will end on that date?

    If they now 'offer' to mutual surrender are they not weakening their position rather than sticking with the fact that the surrender has already been agreed?
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 19th Jul 17, 12:50 PM
    • 768 Posts
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    saajan_12
    Is it necessary to give the notice? They had a section 21 with a date of the 19th, had fully intended to move out to coincide with that and had been in regular communication with the agent about the fact that they were delayed slightly by circumstances beyond their control. -the reasons are irrelevant. the fixed term has ended so they are on a periodic tenancy, and the LL's notice doesn't end that. Surely all that communication and the agents statement that they can drop their keys off on the 25th constitutes a mutual agreement that the tenancy will end on that date? - OP doesn't specify, but it sounds like a verbal statement to drop off keys. A mutual surrender would be agreeing to override the original agreement with a new one to terminate,
    and as such I think it would need to be in the same formality as the original (ie the termination should be in writing). So I don't think the LA's statements are enough.


    If they now 'offer' to mutual surrender are they not weakening their position rather than sticking with the fact that the surrender has already been agreed?
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    I would offer to mutual surrender, highlighting that you will make use of the property while you are paying rent, and only return keys earlier than the notice expiry if/when they agree to the surrender.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 19th Jul 17, 12:56 PM
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    Pixie5740
    Indeed, if the OP wants the tenancy to end 25th July it will have to be done by mutual surrender now. If a mutual surrender is agreed it is imperative that the OP gets this agreement in writing.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 19th Jul 17, 3:53 PM
    • 1,622 Posts
    • 4,361 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    Indeed, if the OP wants the tenancy to end 25th July it will have to be done by mutual surrender now. If a mutual surrender is agreed it is imperative that the OP gets this agreement in writing.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    Ok, so it sounds like the OP needs to give the agent 2 options. Either they give their correct notice and maintain use of the property until that notice is up, or they agree a mutual surrender and hand the property back on the 25th? Landlord can't have the property back and keep charging rent.
    • cybervic
    • By cybervic 20th Jul 17, 12:04 PM
    • 347 Posts
    • 519 Thanks
    cybervic
    I have written to the agent yesterday stating that because they could not confirm check-out service booking, we will return the keys on 25th as they advised, and if they change their mind about letting me book the check out service just let me know.

    This morning the agent replied "If you could kindly pop the keys into our office as early as possible on the 25th July 17 that would be great. I have arranged for Professional Inventories to meet you at the property at 3.00pm for the final check out inspection."


    Does this count as mutual surrender agreement ?

    Thanks.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 20th Jul 17, 12:11 PM
    • 15,147 Posts
    • 14,752 Thanks
    Guest101
    I have written to the agent yesterday stating that because they could not confirm check-out service booking, we will return the keys on 25th as they advised, and if they change their mind about letting me book the check out service just let me know.

    This morning the agent replied "If you could kindly pop the keys into our office as early as possible on the 25th July 17 that would be great. I have arranged for Professional Inventories to meet you at the property at 3.00pm for the final check out inspection."


    Does this count as mutual surrender agreement ?

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by cybervic
    Technically it should be in writing with a witness


    In practice the LL (as only the LL can take you to court) is unlikely to pursue this
    • ViolaLass
    • By ViolaLass 20th Jul 17, 12:14 PM
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    ViolaLass
    Why do they need the keys dropped off asap on the day if the check out people are going to meet you at the property?

    I'd be suspicious. Are they planning to get there before 3pm?
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 20th Jul 17, 12:19 PM
    • 10,827 Posts
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    Pixie5740
    Ask the letting agent to confirm in writing that the tenancy will be surrendered when you hand the keys in.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
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