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    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 6th Jul 17, 10:30 AM
    • 12Posts
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    Wrighty1977
    Proof of overnight stays.
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 17, 10:30 AM
    Proof of overnight stays. 6th Jul 17 at 10:30 AM
    Hi,
    I have 3 boys who have been staying overnight at least once a week with me since April. I contacted the child maintenance service to inform them of this and the said they would contact my ex to get her to confirm this. I received a letter from the child maintenance service saying they could not accept the changes to the shared care agreement as there is no court order in place. I applied for a court but the judge dismissed my application because I could not commit to every other weekend, I could only commit to 50% of the weekends. I sent my ex an e-mail saying from the start of the next school year I will see the boys on alternate weekends and have asked her to confirm the new arrangement but I am yet to hear back from her. Is there any other way to prove to the child maintenance service that the boys stay overnight? I have considered informing my ex that as the boys stay overnight at least once a week I have worked out what I should pay her using the child maintenance calculator on the official site so from the 1st of October I will only pay her that amount. She can the take the rest through collect and pay if she wishes.
Page 1
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 6th Jul 17, 10:41 AM
    • 14,627 Posts
    • 14,349 Thanks
    Guest101
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 17, 10:41 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 17, 10:41 AM
    Are you currently on collect and pay?
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 6th Jul 17, 12:10 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Wrighty1977
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:10 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:10 PM
    No, I am currently on direct pay.
    • Fission
    • By Fission 10th Jul 17, 1:51 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Fission
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:51 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:51 AM
    Your position is not clear.

    Do you have one night contact for something less than fifty-two weekends a year?

    If so, that won't amount to the requisite 52 nights per year for each child. Not unless you also have overnight contact at other times (eg, school holidays, half-term).

    What would the figure be over a full year?
    • 13Kent
    • By 13Kent 11th Jul 17, 12:00 PM
    • 1,002 Posts
    • 3,595 Thanks
    13Kent
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 12:00 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 17, 12:00 PM
    I have heard of people positioning the children in front of the tv showing the tv guide with time and date on and taking a photo and using that as evidence of the children staying with them, as unfortunately historically the csa take the PWC's word for if they have overnight contact or not.

    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 11th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    Wrighty1977
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 17, 2:36 PM
    The boys stay with me every other weekend for two nights and they will stay over during the holidays and bank holiday weekends also so it will be a minimum of 52 nights a year. I would like them to stay more but my ex won't allow it. I think she's doing this because she will receive less maintenance.
    • Sambella
    • By Sambella 11th Jul 17, 6:23 PM
    • 319 Posts
    • 301 Thanks
    Sambella
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:23 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 17, 6:23 PM
    If you don’t pay the calculated amount you will be moved to collect and pay.

    The CMS is really not helpful in these number of nights disputes only way you can prove it is maybe have a family member/neighbour sign a statement or something and send pictures of them in bed with that days paper alongside them. So stupid really.

    They really shouldn’t take sides as it just causes aggravation. The CMS actually encourage family based agreements where no court orders are required! It also costs to get a court order which is unfair on the person seeking it.

    Was there a reason that you wouldn’t commit to every other weekend, work perhaps? Contact usually works around the non resident parents availability rather than the days she wants you to have them.
    • Johnny Barnes10
    • By Johnny Barnes10 12th Jul 17, 1:40 PM
    • 250 Posts
    • 79 Thanks
    Johnny Barnes10
    • #8
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:40 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:40 PM
    I've had the same. I was having mine 3 nights a week. Ex quit her job and has made it so I have them 1/2 imes a week. I'm more than happy to have them more but CMS will not accept photos as evidence to say I have them overnight more than once a week.
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 12th Jul 17, 10:27 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Wrighty1977
    • #9
    • 12th Jul 17, 10:27 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Jul 17, 10:27 PM
    I work 1 Saturday a month and 1 Sunday every 2 months but they do not occur on a regular basis.
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 13th Jul 17, 2:33 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    Wrighty1977
    I have now arranged my work to enable me to see the boys every other weekend. I have e-mailed my ex saying I can start seeing the boys on alternate weekends, and given her 3 weekends that this can start from, but she hasn't e-mailed me back. She has text me saying she wants to meet in person. I think she's saying this so nothing will be documented so I have e-mailed her saying I will only meet in person if a mediator is present. Has anyone got any ideas?
    • newbutold
    • By newbutold 13th Jul 17, 8:25 PM
    • 647 Posts
    • 1,041 Thanks
    newbutold
    No, I am currently on direct pay.
    Originally posted by Wrighty1977
    If you go down the collect and pay route, it will end up costing you another 20% on top of the full amount you owe.
    If my posts have random wrong words, please blame the damn autocorrect not me
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 13th Jul 17, 11:30 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Wrighty1977
    Will that be 20% of the total amount or 20% of the amount outstanding? The government calculator says I should pay £90 a month less if the boys stay overnight 1 night a week on average. I'm willing to write off the extra £18 if it's 20% of the outstanding balance.
    • WYSPECIAL
    • By WYSPECIAL 15th Jul 17, 7:01 AM
    • 307 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    WYSPECIAL
    It was the case when CMS first came in that where there was a dispute with insufficient evidence as to overnight stays then they would make an assumption at 1/7 and calculate based on this. This was one of the big differences between CMS and CSA.

    Presumably this is still the case so might be worth asking about.
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 18th Jul 17, 4:05 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Wrighty1977
    Thank you WYSPECIAL, I will get back in touch with the CMS and look into this.
    • newbutold
    • By newbutold 19th Jul 17, 10:05 PM
    • 647 Posts
    • 1,041 Thanks
    newbutold
    Will that be 20% of the total amount or 20% of the amount outstanding? The government calculator says I should pay £90 a month less if the boys stay overnight 1 night a week on average. I'm willing to write off the extra £18 if it's 20% of the outstanding balance.
    Originally posted by Wrighty1977
    Under the new system, if you don't pay or have arrears the PWC can request to go on to collect & pay. If the CMS believe you won't pay or have proven not to pay in the past, the PWC's request for collect & pay will be granted. They will then collect the whole amount owing each month from you with a 20% surcharge, the PWC will get charged 4%.

    By only part paying you will be in arrears and therefore classed as proven not to pay and wont be able to chose whether to pay direct or not.

    The 20% will be of the whole amount due each week.
    If my posts have random wrong words, please blame the damn autocorrect not me
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 24th Jul 17, 10:58 AM
    • 12 Posts
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    Wrighty1977
    What would happen if I told the CMS that I was living with my girlfriend and her child? Would they ask me to prove it or would that just take my word for it like they took my ex's word for it when she denied the boys stay with me overnight?
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 24th Jul 17, 9:43 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    The way you've phrased your post implies you don't actually live with your girlfriend and her child, so would be planning to deliberately misrepresent your situation.

    You may want to consider the wider implications of such a plan. For example, CMS/CSA is part of DWP and share information with each other and HMRC. If your girlfriend is claiming tax credits as a single parent and you are claiming an allowance in your CMS calculation due to living with her and her child, they're going to know something is up.

    You and your girlfriend may then find yourselves on the receiving end of several investigations from multiple government departments. Will it really be worth it for a discount that for most people equates to a few pounds a week?

    For example, if you were earning £25k you would pay £57.53 a week for one child, reducing to £51.21 a week if you also had a child in your household.

    That's before you even get to the whole "it's a criminal offence to knowingly provide false info to CMS" consideration. Whilst very few people actually are prosecuted, the possibility exists.

    If in fact you do live with your girlfriend and her child, my apologies for reading more than was meant in your post. In that situation, does it matter if they ask for proof? You would surely have something that proves where you live to be able to get the change made?
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 25th Jul 17, 3:15 AM
    • 12 Posts
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    Wrighty1977
    It would save me £57 a month but was wondering if it would be worth the hassle.
    When I told the CMS about my boys staying overnight they said they'd get my ex to confirm it. They then sent me a letter saying they could not accept the changes to the shared care agreement so I assume my ex didn't confirm it. If she didn't does that mean she has committed a criminal offence?
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 25th Jul 17, 7:25 AM
    • 473 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    It's a criminal offence to knowingly provide false information to them. But as I said before, few people have actually been prosecuted. P

    However, unlike your scenario with your girlfriend's child, where there may be plenty of evidence available to them to indicate the validity or not of a statement about living together, they have no access to independent evidence from other government departments about your children's shared care arrangements.

    So, then you're in a classic he said, she said. From a third party's point of view, is there actually any evidence available to prove it's your ex that's lying and not you? sorry, I know that sounds harsh but I'm trying to present the view of an unrelated third party who knows neither of you. At this point, is there any independent, hard evidence available to prove your shared care arrangement?
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Wrighty1977
    • By Wrighty1977 25th Jul 17, 10:41 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Wrighty1977
    The CMS have said they will only take her word for it or a court order. She has failed to confirm it and the application for a court order was dismissed because I couldn't commit to every other weekend. I work in a hospital laboratory and we offer a 24/7 service. Everyone has to work 1 in 4 Saturdays and 1 in 8 Sundays but they do not always occur on a regular basis so I could only commit to 50% of the weekends. I've rearranged my weekends so I can commit to every weekend now and have e-mailed my ex this but she says she will only discuss this in person and is refusing to reply to my e-mails. The MIAM I had expires on the 4th of August so I may make a new application. At the last hearing my ex objected to the boys staying overnight during the week because I live above a pub and she doesn't want them to be tired for school. They sleep well at the weekends when it's a bit noisy and there's no noise at all during the week.
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