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  • FIRST POST
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 6th Jul 17, 4:09 AM
    • 19Posts
    • 0Thanks
    consumer987
    Refused train ticket.
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 17, 4:09 AM
    Refused train ticket. 6th Jul 17 at 4:09 AM
    Hi

    I was refused a train ticket by a stations ticket office.

    I had enough money; a bank note and some small change and was keen to pay. The ticket office person told me to go to the local shops and get correct change for him. But I had less than 6 minutes before the train arrived. I was desperate because I had an appointment and so I needed that train. Not a later one.

    He repeatedly refused me a permit to travel (a permit would have been fine as I could have purchased a ticket on the train). He kept telling me to go to the shops for him. I stood my ground as I did not wish to buy anything and I was not sure if any of the shop keepers would just give out change with no purchase. The distance to the shops and time for a transaction and so forth would have been far longer than 6 minutes anyway; he knew the train was on its way, I asked him when it was due.

    It was amazing, I came up with so many sensible solutions. he refused every single one! It was the most incredible display of psychological abuse I have felt in a long time. I was meant to be in town, at least 7 miles away, for an interview; this man was preventing me from travelling to it on time.

    he also threaten me with potential fines if I were to board without a ticket, so I was very worried. I knew, as he was so unfriendly, he could easily call the driver and say “A man sneaked on and refused to buy a ticket...fine him!!!” I could not risk that.

    From the beginning of the incident, a nice calm starting point after saying hello and being refused a ticket, I suggested a few ideas (below), to name but a few, and not in this particular order.

    Contact your superior, tell him you are out of change and that a customer needs to board the train = Refused

    Turn on the permit to travel machine outside, so I can purchase a ticket with cash = Refused.

    Contact the driver of the train to allow me to board and pay on the train= Refused.

    Write on a piece of paper to support me boarding the train= Refused

    If i get on the train without a permit to travel and attempt to buy a ticket on the train will you support me if they call through to this office to enquire if my story is accurate?

    He said "I'm not supporting you “. “You need to go to the shop to get change”

    He kept saying - Go to the shops.

    I told him that I did not want to to go, I kept telling him, I don’t want to buy anything either.

    So I said to him “You go to the shops!!“

    He said : “ I'm not going to the shop just for you”

    “ No, you will go to the shop for all your customers” I said.

    “Are you telling me I have to walk to town?“

    He refused to answer.

    He said for me to use a credit card initially, after peering in my wallet.

    but I was unsure how much money I had in that particular account, I suspected it was near zero. I was not going to risk going over drawn. So I refused to do that (I do have money in other accounts, but I had only a card for my regular food shopping account) I was not going to risk that!

    It did flair up. I raised my voice, I had only a few minutes to get to the platform and had got absolutely nowhere with this ticket office person.

    I felt like I was imprisoned! Serious. I was trapped. I was planning this interview for ages. I lost sleep preparing and I was just in time at the station, I needed to get on that train!!!

    I said that I would just get on the train and pay on the train, as that was my only option.

    He said you will likely be charged thousands of pounds at the inspectors discretion.

    He was threatening me will huge fines! Now I could see a court case too.

    My patience was lost (time ticking away; I could see the clock on the wall and display read out) it was so stressful. So I told him what I thought of this complete none sense. and I raised my voice and said I was going to ring up to complain.

    He shouted at me through his little plastic hole in the wall as I left the office that he was going to complain about me!

    My whole day was damaged. I felt so very sick, I was not a happy chap for a long time after.

    If I was an old lady this would not have happened, I would have been given a permit to pass. easy thing to do. Just turn the permit to pass machine on and then i'd be allowed to pay for a proper ticket on route or at the destination.

    I am a middle aged male. I received unfair abuse!

    The station is usually manned by great staff, this guy was something else, with one of those smirky expressions that just triggers the most mellow of people.

    Thanks for reading and any help you may offer.



    *found on national rail site:

    "If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity."

    solution found so far

    How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?

    To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

    If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

    If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.


    So the ticket office cashier was in the wrong. It was all unnecessary.
    Last edited by consumer987; 08-07-2017 at 11:33 PM.
Page 4
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 4:01 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    wealdroam
    i tryed the quote thing you suggested ( post was meant to tho )
    "
    The following errors occurred with your submission: Sorry as a new user you are not allowed to post with links."

    maybe because yours has an icon in it?, i'll try again if this thread needs to carry on any further.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 4:09 PM
    • 18,640 Posts
    • 15,519 Thanks
    wealdroam
    wealdroam
    i tryed the quote thing you suggested ( post was meant to tho )
    "
    The following errors occurred with your submission: Sorry as a new user you are not allowed to post with links."

    maybe because yours has an icon in it?, i'll try again if this thread needs to carry on any further.
    Originally posted by consumer987
    Yes, that's the reason for that error.
    Just delete the bit between [url] and [/url], or the bit between [img] and [/img], before posting.
    The good news is that you will soon have enough posts not to even need to do that.
    Last edited by wealdroam; 07-07-2017 at 4:13 PM.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 4:12 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    Consumer987, it looks like that link that Tho has provided gives you your answer:
    Originally posted by wealdroam

    So it seems we found an answer, that I was allowed to travel after all, as i was not able to purchase a ticket or a permit for my particular train journey even though i had the suggested notes and coins found on their site and was prepared to pay.

    I should have been allowed to buy on route in this instance.

    I knew this was daft all along.

    what a palaver!
    • tho
    • By tho 7th Jul 17, 4:17 PM
    • 102 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    tho
    It was because mine had a link in the quote.

    I know what it's like to not have much in reserves but thank you for assuming anyway.

    I feel sorry for your situation. But #1 you did have funds to pay. (card or tenner without change) You refused.

    #2 the very maximum fine you would have got for fare evasion is £20 (for you because your fare was less than £10) Yes, it's a lot to some people but not life changing so you can stop fretting about pensioners stumbling onto the wrong train. (unless by accident they get on a Edinburgh - London direct express)

    #3 as shown in the link. There is a perfectly acceptable way to board the train if the ticket office is unable. I apologise for the suggestion that you broke the law, but it wouldn't have been if you went to see the guard at the first opportunity. I very much doubt that if you'd gone to see the guard, said what happened, he'd have been ringing the ticket office for a story. He'd have issued you a ticket, or asked to ensure you bought one at your destination.

    IF and it's a big if, the guard hadn't believed you, then it would have been your word against the ticket office, and that's a strong lie in court when there's more than likely cctv of you in the office repeatedly trying and being refused handing over a ten pound note.

    The ticket office can stop the train and refuse you permission to board and get you big fines, but only for disruptive behaviour against railway personnel. And you didn't do that because the police would have been involved, and you wouldn't be asking on here.

    Again. I'm sorry for your experience. Tell the rail company involved. But you COULD have boarded the train.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 5:24 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    #1 No, I did not refuse. I wanted to pay, I had the money in hand. My card ( of which was a private item in my wallet was not an option at that time) I had cash, the train company claims to except all uk cash. but they could not take my money on that day,

    He refused my note as he could not give change. They had an issue at the till and were unable to provide the ticket so I should have been advised to pay on route as I did not refuse, I was prepared to pay. His cash system was unable to facilitate the transaction, he made no suggestion to take the whole note, either. It was the equivalent of 'out of order' unless I had exact change. I needed the change myself, so I should have been allowed to pay on the train, as the policy dictates.I was within my rights and not resisting.


    #2 A fare evasion? Why should I be fined when I was prepared to pay? We now know the policy, but at the time I did not. Hence I did not feel comfortable boarding without a ticket, permit or support from the office. Too much risk.

    #3 yes we now find out there was perfectly acceptable way to board, I was within my rights, but I was threatened if I board at the time! Big difference! I could not board the train in that circumstance. You 'tho' may have an idea of the fines that could be applied. But I did not know or have time to research the fines I may have to pay at that time. Far too much risk.

    It must have been against code of conduct to keep telling me to go shopping repeatedly when my train was moments away.

    I don’t think you understand, the ticket office also threatened me if I board, and would not support the claim of 'no change' either if there was a case to answer. For all I knew he would call the train or the next station to say I boarded without a ticket and try his best to have me fined? this was a big element in my decision. He was not a nice character. And how do i know if the cctv would be on? When your in that situation, the mind cannot take all this in and process it, with the train approaching the platform you just take the best option you can. and for me no large fines was my option and to leave the station to find an alternative.

    I have contacted the company.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 5:41 PM
    • 18,640 Posts
    • 15,519 Thanks
    wealdroam
    Again, is there a ticket vending machine at this station?
    • stclair
    • By stclair 7th Jul 17, 6:45 PM
    • 6,325 Posts
    • 3,372 Thanks
    stclair
    Which station and train company we talking about here?
    I Work For the RBS Group
    However Any Opinion Given On MSE Is Strictly My Own
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 7th Jul 17, 6:50 PM
    • 1,739 Posts
    • 2,675 Thanks
    k3lvc
    Which station and train company we talking about here?
    Originally posted by stclair
    Meet the brick wall that is the OP - seems we're not allowed to know the station, rail company, how much the ticket cost, what cash he had, why he couldn't use his debit card and how he finally got to his destination
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 7th Jul 17, 7:16 PM
    • 1,338 Posts
    • 523 Thanks
    yorkie2
    There is a huge amount of text, but a quick glance (sorry, I don't have time to read the full text) suggests the necessary details are not forthcoming, so I am not in a position to be able to provide advice.

    If the full details were posted, then we could provide appropriate advice.
    • Enterprise 1701C
    • By Enterprise 1701C 8th Jul 17, 8:24 AM
    • 18,269 Posts
    • 193,920 Thanks
    Enterprise 1701C
    Again, you are saying you were "within your rights".

    Problem being they do not have to sell you a ticket or allow you carriage.

    You have no "right" to buy a ticket or travel on the train. If you had that right they would not be able to deal with unruly passengers.

    Round our way we do not have a station as such, we have a stop with shelters. If we cannot buy a ticket before we get on the train we simply buy one at the other end, they know the problems we have with the machines. We do not have a ticket office or anything like that.
    What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare
    • Vaskor
    • By Vaskor 11th Jul 17, 6:06 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Vaskor
    "Just as a aside. The fine wouldn't have been life changing...
    £20 or twice the fare to the next station, whichevers greater..."

    Depending on the train operator, that could be highly risky. In 2009, I was hauled in front of a magistrate's court after a malicious SWT employee falsely claimed my ticket was invalid. Fortunately, the magistrate was more reasonable, but before the hearing I was threatened with £300 of fines and a criminal conviction, and I was never offered the chance to pay a penalty fare. I subsequently was shocked to find that I had been targeted by a gang of malicious SWT employees who did this regularly, and that the SWT MD had publicly stated that profits could come before ethics.
    • stclair
    • By stclair 11th Jul 17, 8:01 AM
    • 6,325 Posts
    • 3,372 Thanks
    stclair
    I can remember someone refused me a priv ticket once.

    As the person said my ID card said Mr A Smith and my pass said Mr Alan Smith.

    I've used it hundreds of times before without any issue I just purchased a ticket on the train lol
    I Work For the RBS Group
    However Any Opinion Given On MSE Is Strictly My Own
    • tho
    • By tho 11th Jul 17, 8:10 AM
    • 102 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    tho
    "Just as a aside. The fine wouldn't have been life changing...
    £20 or twice the fare to the next station, whichevers greater..."

    Depending on the train operator, that could be highly risky. In 2009, I was hauled in front of a magistrate's court after a malicious SWT employee falsely claimed my ticket was invalid. Fortunately, the magistrate was more reasonable, but before the hearing I was threatened with £300 of fines and a criminal conviction, and I was never offered the chance to pay a penalty fare. I subsequently was shocked to find that I had been targeted by a gang of malicious SWT employees who did this regularly, and that the SWT MD had publicly stated that profits could come before ethics.
    Originally posted by Vaskor
    The fact you weren't offered a penalty fare probably helped with the magistrate. See the link further on. That's the immediate penalty. Yes fines at magistrates court are much higher (I think the highest is about £750), but thats normally for people who refuse to pay on the spot.
    • Vaskor
    • By Vaskor 13th Jul 17, 5:27 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Vaskor
    I suspect that I probably wasn't offered a penalty fare because the ticket inspector actually knew that my ticket was in fact valid, even though he claimed it wasn't. His behaviour was completely different in the courtroom, where he was a witness for the prosecution, and he seemed to be doing a lot of back pedalling in relation to previous statements he had made which I referred to as part of my defence. In court, he seemed to be trying to show that he was a helpful and professional inspector, although in my opinion, he wasn't very convincing, as a result of his previous actions and contradictory statements. I suspect the magistrate was not convinced either, based on the result of the hearing.
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