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  • FIRST POST
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 6th Jul 17, 4:09 AM
    • 19Posts
    • 0Thanks
    consumer987
    Refused train ticket.
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 17, 4:09 AM
    Refused train ticket. 6th Jul 17 at 4:09 AM
    Hi

    I was refused a train ticket by a stations ticket office.

    I had enough money; a bank note and some small change and was keen to pay. The ticket office person told me to go to the local shops and get correct change for him. But I had less than 6 minutes before the train arrived. I was desperate because I had an appointment and so I needed that train. Not a later one.

    He repeatedly refused me a permit to travel (a permit would have been fine as I could have purchased a ticket on the train). He kept telling me to go to the shops for him. I stood my ground as I did not wish to buy anything and I was not sure if any of the shop keepers would just give out change with no purchase. The distance to the shops and time for a transaction and so forth would have been far longer than 6 minutes anyway; he knew the train was on its way, I asked him when it was due.

    It was amazing, I came up with so many sensible solutions. he refused every single one! It was the most incredible display of psychological abuse I have felt in a long time. I was meant to be in town, at least 7 miles away, for an interview; this man was preventing me from travelling to it on time.

    he also threaten me with potential fines if I were to board without a ticket, so I was very worried. I knew, as he was so unfriendly, he could easily call the driver and say “A man sneaked on and refused to buy a ticket...fine him!!!” I could not risk that.

    From the beginning of the incident, a nice calm starting point after saying hello and being refused a ticket, I suggested a few ideas (below), to name but a few, and not in this particular order.

    Contact your superior, tell him you are out of change and that a customer needs to board the train = Refused

    Turn on the permit to travel machine outside, so I can purchase a ticket with cash = Refused.

    Contact the driver of the train to allow me to board and pay on the train= Refused.

    Write on a piece of paper to support me boarding the train= Refused

    If i get on the train without a permit to travel and attempt to buy a ticket on the train will you support me if they call through to this office to enquire if my story is accurate?

    He said "I'm not supporting you “. “You need to go to the shop to get change”

    He kept saying - Go to the shops.

    I told him that I did not want to to go, I kept telling him, I don’t want to buy anything either.

    So I said to him “You go to the shops!!“

    He said : “ I'm not going to the shop just for you”

    “ No, you will go to the shop for all your customers” I said.

    “Are you telling me I have to walk to town?“

    He refused to answer.

    He said for me to use a credit card initially, after peering in my wallet.

    but I was unsure how much money I had in that particular account, I suspected it was near zero. I was not going to risk going over drawn. So I refused to do that (I do have money in other accounts, but I had only a card for my regular food shopping account) I was not going to risk that!

    It did flair up. I raised my voice, I had only a few minutes to get to the platform and had got absolutely nowhere with this ticket office person.

    I felt like I was imprisoned! Serious. I was trapped. I was planning this interview for ages. I lost sleep preparing and I was just in time at the station, I needed to get on that train!!!

    I said that I would just get on the train and pay on the train, as that was my only option.

    He said you will likely be charged thousands of pounds at the inspectors discretion.

    He was threatening me will huge fines! Now I could see a court case too.

    My patience was lost (time ticking away; I could see the clock on the wall and display read out) it was so stressful. So I told him what I thought of this complete none sense. and I raised my voice and said I was going to ring up to complain.

    He shouted at me through his little plastic hole in the wall as I left the office that he was going to complain about me!

    My whole day was damaged. I felt so very sick, I was not a happy chap for a long time after.

    If I was an old lady this would not have happened, I would have been given a permit to pass. easy thing to do. Just turn the permit to pass machine on and then i'd be allowed to pay for a proper ticket on route or at the destination.

    I am a middle aged male. I received unfair abuse!

    The station is usually manned by great staff, this guy was something else, with one of those smirky expressions that just triggers the most mellow of people.

    Thanks for reading and any help you may offer.



    *found on national rail site:

    "If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity."

    solution found so far

    How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?

    To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

    If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

    If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.


    So the ticket office cashier was in the wrong. It was all unnecessary.
    Last edited by consumer987; 08-07-2017 at 11:33 PM.
Page 3
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 2:03 AM
    • 19 Posts
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    consumer987
    Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for passengers and freight

    "If the station is unmanned and the ticket machine is not working (or will not accept cash), you should be able to board the train and purchase the ticket from the conductor or guard. Since you are technically breaking the railway byelaws, you should make every effort to contact the conductor or guard as quickly as possible."

    so you can board without a ticket with good reason.

    still searching for 'if the station is manned.' perhaps they assume the ticket office would be perfectly capable and this rule above therefore does not apply? I do not know yet.
    Last edited by consumer987; 07-07-2017 at 5:16 AM.
    • photome
    • By photome 7th Jul 17, 7:14 AM
    • 12,692 Posts
    • 8,168 Thanks
    photome
    How much was the ticket?

    I know you dont want to answer but have no idea why.

    As for the TO having a bag of £1 coins, maybe he did but had used them all, there comes a point where most tills anywhere, if they dont have access to a cash office, will run out of change


    how have you escalated your complaint?
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 7th Jul 17, 8:14 AM
    • 1,834 Posts
    • 2,869 Thanks
    k3lvc
    Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for passengers and freight

    "If the station is unmanned and the ticket machine is not working (or will not accept cash), you should be able to board the train and purchase the ticket from the conductor or guard. Since you are technically breaking the railway byelaws, you should make every effort to contact the conductor or guard as quickly as possible."

    so you can board without a ticket with good reason.

    still searching for 'if the station is manned.' perhaps they assume the ticket office would be perfectly capable and this rule above therefore does not apply? I do not know yet.
    Originally posted by consumer987
    You're seriously overthinking this - no-one here is likely to give you the advice you want (and I'm still not exactly sure what you're looking for)
    • Enterprise 1701C
    • By Enterprise 1701C 7th Jul 17, 8:16 AM
    • 18,573 Posts
    • 196,203 Thanks
    Enterprise 1701C
    They do not have to sell you a ticket.

    Trains are private property, for which you pay a fee for use, this can be refused.

    If the ticket office did not have sufficient change to deal with your request would you have been happy to hand over the £10 note for a £1.99 ticket (just guessing as you don't seem to give any idea of the price).

    It seems to me that you expect him to close the ticket office and leave it empty to go into town and get change. Has it occurred to you this might even be a sackable offcence?
    What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare
    • tho
    • By tho 7th Jul 17, 8:48 AM
    • 172 Posts
    • 391 Thanks
    tho
    You're really over analysing. His "threats" would have been if you slumped in the corner of the train and tried to get a free ride. if you'd gone find the GUARD (just a hint, banging on the cab of the driver to tell him all about your story would probably have copped you a fine as well. not a threat, pretty much a fact). you'd probably have been fine.

    The reason people want to know if you caught the train or not and the ticket price is to add credibility to your story, as well as to try to see the other side of the story. you say it flared up. Did you then go on the rampage and smash the station up? if so the ticket officer was well within his rights not to let you on.was the ticket 91p? you can see if you present a £10 note or 90p when he has no change it maybe a problem? In terms of what's relevant, you seem to be deciding that yourself to be honest. The following (amongst other things) also aren't, but you told us anyway to support yourself.

    "I did not wish to buy anything"
    "I am a middle aged male."
    "(I do have money in other accounts, but I had only a card for my regular food shopping account)"
    "My whole day was damaged. I felt so very sick, I was not a happy chap for a long time after."
    "I was meant to be in town, at least 7 miles away, for an interview"
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 7th Jul 17, 8:52 AM
    • 18,444 Posts
    • 14,151 Thanks
    agrinnall
    But before that, the OP told us in the opening post:


    The story seems to be changing.
    Originally posted by wealdroam
    Which is exactly what I said in post #9.

    However, the OP's story changes so much that I believe it is just that, a story.
    • dggar
    • By dggar 7th Jul 17, 10:11 AM
    • 541 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    dggar
    Have the school holidays started yet?


    You get similar tales appearing on the Banking thread quite frequently.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 1:17 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    Thank you all for your replies and thoughts on this.

    I initially said 'he' thought I had a credit card, but it was actually a debit card. A few of you now feel that I am changing the story, no, i was not prepared to risk using my card, i came along with cash. I was well within my rights there.

    ticket price (obviously under 10 pounds) I do not have the exact amount at hand. so i shall not say for certain. what I can say is I had the perfect amount of coins, so all he needed was to give me pound coins in return.

    What happened to me after I left the station without a ticket is private and irrelevant.

    Someone seems to think it was an idea to smash the place up. Hmm, that did not come to mind. Well, I bet someone would have felt that way. It was not a nice situation to be in with only a few minutes to go, to be trapped like that. it was so claustrophobic and stressful.

    It is the policy that matters here, to protect, in particular, children and old people from missing their trains.

    Either no one agrees with this simple premiss, or this is so obvious that its not worth talking about?

    The company did have the facility to give change in my situation, on the train and at the destination. it would have been a simple case to guide myself and any other customers, such as old ladies and children who had only cash onto the train with no threats of life changing fines.

    It seems there is a good policy in place if the station is 'unmanned'. just get on the train and pay on route, which is sensible.

    however, if the station is 'manned' and they cannot accept legal and accepted currency as listed on their site, customers, including disabled people, have to go shopping first if they wish to use a £10 note?!

    It would make sense to have a policy in place for when the station is manned also.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 2:04 PM
    • 18,648 Posts
    • 15,549 Thanks
    wealdroam
    It doesn't appear to me that you have asked any organisation for their thoughts.

    If you were to ask the station management, I don't mean the man behind the ticket seller, I mean the organisation that manages the station.
    For example, to look up your station go to National Rail Enquiries, Stations services and facilities and enter your station name in the search box.
    On the next screen, immediately under the station name you will see who manages the station - on a line starting 'Managed by...'.
    Click on the name of the train operator to discover how to contact them. I would suggest you send them an email, but please make it a little shorter than your original post.

    If you don't get a satisfactory response from the train operator that manages the station, perhaps you should ask Transport Focus for help.

    I have seen the following written, but I can't remember where now, that one should buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity. If the ticket office, and ticket vending machine if available, are unable to sell you the ticket you require using the payment method you wish to use, You should board the train.
    Of course the first opportunity may be staff on the train. If there's no staff on the train, perhaps an interchange station or your destination station is the first opportunity.
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 7th Jul 17, 2:10 PM
    • 4,608 Posts
    • 3,611 Thanks
    glentoran99
    Would you have been happy had he took your £10 and offered no change, that's what the law states, its not a right to get change


    In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
    • BethRobinson
    • By BethRobinson 7th Jul 17, 2:51 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    BethRobinson
    Did you get the job?
    • tho
    • By tho 7th Jul 17, 3:02 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 391 Thanks
    tho

    What happened to me after I left the station without a ticket is private and irrelevant.

    Someone seems to think it was an idea to smash the place up. Hmm, that did not come to mind. Well, I bet someone would have felt that way. It was not a nice situation to be in with only a few minutes to go, to be trapped like that. it was so claustrophobic and stressful.
    Originally posted by consumer987
    Read what I actually put. I didnt suggest it. I said if you tell us what happened it may reveal more about the ticket officers frame of mind. If you got in a strop, (which you admit too in your opening post) then the ticket officer is well within his rights to refuse you a ticket because you're a danger to the passengers on the train.

    Therefore I'd say it's fairly relevant. More than the fact you had a job interview. Which is "personal and irrelevant" to this story but I suspect you included to play the victim.

    You left the station without a ticket any chance you left the station on the train and that's why you won't admit? Even though that's what has been suggested to you, so long as you went and found the guard?
    Last edited by tho; 07-07-2017 at 3:07 PM.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 3:09 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    Thank you, yes I have contacted the correct department and am awaiting a response.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 3:11 PM
    • 18,648 Posts
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    wealdroam
    Is there a ticket vending machine at your station?
    • tho
    • By tho 7th Jul 17, 3:33 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 391 Thanks
    tho
    Just as a aside. The fine wouldn't have been life changing... http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46592.aspx

    £20 or twice the fare to the next station, whichevers greater...
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 3:39 PM
    • 18,648 Posts
    • 15,549 Thanks
    wealdroam
    Consumer987, it looks like that link that Tho has provided gives you your answer:
    How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?

    To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

    If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

    If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 3:42 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    To user tho

    You suggested a terrible thought for people and it was far from the truth.

    no.

    After a number of minutes of me making reasonable suggestions or at least an attempt to stimulate him to come up with a possible suggestion. He refused repeatedly to even support the story of 'no change' if I jumped on board and if the guard called his station by phone!! not good.

    To rephrase maybe this does not make sense. I asked him: if they call through to clarify this issue regards 'no change' and me not having a legal permit will you support me? he said No.

    so i was not allowed on the train, you see.

    so then 'after' he refused to help multiple times, policy issue or not. human error or not (telling me to go shopping with a few minutes to go was not a solution) I was so disgusted at this situation and his attitude I raised my voice to say I would complaint and walked out the station.

    I have repeatedly said time and time again on here he threatened me with fines,
    so I could not jump on the train without a ticket or permit= it is illegal. I would have been a fool to do so when the ticket office is not going to support the story of 'no change'.

    so i feel i was right not to board as the ticket office suggested.

    had i jumped on the train with no permit, imagine if i was fined 600 pounds or any other amount, imagine, I then come on this forum, what would you have said?
    "its your own fault!!"? or would you then stick up for me?

    I think this is known as 'between a rock and a hard place'

    This should not happen there should always be a nice sensible solution when a customer has the funds in hand and is prepared to pay, 'manned' or 'unmanned' it really makes no difference. The customer should be allowed to board without threats.
    Last edited by consumer987; 07-07-2017 at 3:55 PM.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 3:46 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    Thank you wealdroam and Tho, nice find.

    Yes, i believe this is correct and fair.

    My problem was the ticket office would not support the story of 'no change'. he would not support me for having no permit or ticket. and discouraged me boarding the train..

    That scared the heck out of me. i cant afford a fine.

    That was the main issue. Hence i walked out the station.


    thanks
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 7th Jul 17, 3:53 PM
    • 18,648 Posts
    • 15,549 Thanks
    wealdroam
    You suggested a terrible thought for people and it was far from the truth.
    Originally posted by consumer987
    I have no idea who you are addressing that comment to.

    To avoid upsetting too many more people can I suggest you learn how to use the 'quote' facility?

    Try clicking the 'quote' button - - at the bottom of the post you are replying to.
    • consumer987
    • By consumer987 7th Jul 17, 3:53 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    consumer987
    Tho

    Am I on ESA? Do you now what ESA is?

    Is my main bank account at 0.01p?

    was that my only 10 pound note?

    Again you should understand that this is irrelevant.

    because if I am rich or poor makes no odds. This could happen to a pensioner
    or a disabled person or someone between jobs.

    So I am happy for you that you may always have some reserves and you find it hard to comprehend what it is like to be poor.

    I may also have a large trust fund and wealthy parents. But it is irrelevant.
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