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  • FIRST POST
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 5th Jul 17, 1:01 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Nielken
    CPMS LTD County Court Claim form received
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 17, 1:01 PM
    CPMS LTD County Court Claim form received 5th Jul 17 at 1:01 PM
    Hi all, first time poster, long time reader / user.

    I've been through the forums and looked for an example similar to mine but the situation is frankly bizarre.

    A few months ago I parked at my sister in laws inside a gated residence car park, they have a space but don't have a car. She just told me to park anywhere on the left which I'm guessing now was somewhat inaccurate.

    Either way, when I returned to the car a couple of days later there were two PCNs for 'parking in thew wrong bay' each with a charge of £100.

    Having not received a ticket for years I was of the impression to ignore them and they'd go away (Now potentially outdated information)

    I received a follow up letter from them which I subsequently ignored too.

    Today I received a Claim Form in the 'County Court Business Centre' issued two days ago.

    I've never had anything like this or been through anything like this so want to get advice as well as sanity check my thoughts having read the forums.

    My opinion on being fined for parking in the wrong space of a residential car park which is nowhere near occupied, inside a private gate is somewhat poor. Unfortunately my wife has binned any previous correspondence and the tickets from them as she assumed it was a scam.

    My understanding is that I will now need to acknowledge receipt of the form and subsequently form a defence, potentially turning up at court to contest the issue.

    I'm going to attend the site tomorrow, taking pictures and videos of any signage (I cannot remember noticing anything standout but then wouldn't have been looking as it wasn't a 'pay for' car park. In addition if required I could get a letter from the tenant if you feel it would be beneficial.

    I cannot remember receiving any picture evidence of my vehicle in the letter they sent me, in addition to the space markers being small bronze plates situated on the curb making them hard to read if parked or on approach.

    Any help would be appreciated, I'm a little concerned about the court piece as we will be trying to get a mortgage in 12 months and the last thing I want is something like this over me, yet I'm also loathed to pay £225 for the supposed 'offence' of parking in a residential gated community in the wrong bay!

    Thank in advance everybody and apologies if I've missed anything glaringly obvious.

    Niel
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 11:30 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Did you even send in a witness statement? What did you do when you read the hearing leter which said when you had to exchange doucments by?

    If they do show up, and have any nouse, they will likely object to you showing anything in court at all.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 30th Nov 17, 12:21 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    Bad news - I lost

    Interestingly the judge started off by telling CPMS that because it was a private, gates community no contract could exist as there was no offer of anything in return. However, because they had not implicitly said it was a breach of contract case he asked them if they wanted to proceed on the basis of a 'trespassing' case.

    Despite making the points I did, in addition to the complaint about the signage being placed the wrong way, and also plaques on the floor being miniscule, therefore making it bordorline impossible to understand which bay to park in, the judges view was that actually it was fully my responsibility to ensure that I searched out the signage, read it and understood it, and subsequently searched out the placque. I couldn't really argue this.

    In addition he deemed the penalties fair and in line with the guidance given to parking companies.

    Therefore I have to pay £250 which is the two consecutive fines and also the court hearing fees.

    Not happy with the result as off the back off literally going to see my sister in law with my wife and parking in their allowance (Albeit the wrong space) it's been an experience.

    Still - you learn.

    Thanks so much to everyone that helped me with the defence and the information, what a community!

    I wouldn't have been nearly as prepared as I was and if I ever have friends / family, or end up with anything like this again myself will be way better equipped to handle it.

    Thanks everybody

    Niel
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 12:53 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Wait, the judge allowed this as a TRESPASS claim???

    Are you absolutely sure?

    ONLY the landowner can sue for trespass, and ONLY for actual damages. CPMS are NOT the landowner.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 30th Nov 17, 1:18 PM
    • 1,819 Posts
    • 3,211 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    As above - it's in Beavis (in line with the guidance given to parking companies. )

    Name of judge as you shouldn't have lost this one.

    Another point which you wouldn't know is that this claim is from the MIL Collections stable even though it was CPMS.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 30th Nov 17, 2:19 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    I can't remember the name of the judge but it will come through on the order in due course. I was quite angry when I go the verdict and in my anger have forgotten his name.

    Not only was it passed as a trespass claim due to the private land nature of the parking the judge did make mention of the fact that he was satisfied the Claimants contract with the landowner allowed them to act in this manner.

    He also said that where he has parking companies pursuing breach of contract claims in similar circumstances he almost always advises them to bring it as a trespass claim, because the nature of the claim had not specifically been stated as Breach of contract he asked CMPS if they wished to pursue under trespass and was happy to allow it as such.

    As soon as it was trespass in my opinion the judge disregarded the signage issue and the placques issue as it was no longer parking contract, it was now trespassing - and he viewed it as my responsibility to review the signage, and the placques to ensure my vehicle was in the appropriate space. He also likened it to parking in somebodies drive etc.

    So I now wait on the outcome letter and at this point am just expecting to pay it and forget about it, the judge said at the beginning there would be no right to appeal unless he had made a flawed decision in the law.

    At this stage is it worth contesting or should I just chalk it up to experience and the experts on this forum can be prepared for the trespassing change next time someone comes up against this?

    I'm so surprised that the judge felt the punishment of parking in the wrong space fit the crime, I get it was the wrong space and somebody else couldn't park in 'their space' but still it feels quite dis-proportionate to me.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 2:28 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Plaque

    You can go for an appeal - I would. ONLY the landowner can sue for trespass, the signs are irrelvant. In fact, its like someone sticking signs on YOUR drive and then charging you...!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 30th Nov 17, 2:34 PM
    • 1,819 Posts
    • 3,211 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    You can go for an appeal - I would. ONLY the landowner can sue for trespass, the signs are irrelvant. In fact, its like someone sticking signs on YOUR drive and then charging you...!
    Be careful as the OP has not shown the bundle.

    We do not know if the OP had trespassed on someone else's demised space which few judges would allow.

    Put up the bundle, especially the site plan and where the car was parked.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 30th Nov 17, 2:57 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    Not sure how to attach a local file from my machine.

    Can email you if that works?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 3:05 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Again, the parking company has no standing on trespass. The judge would have to invent standing to allow it, and they woul dhave erred in law to do so.

    Host it at drop box, tinypic if you have something tiny pic will read, and post a BROKEN link ie a link that does not work - change the "http" to "hxxp", for example.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 30th Nov 17, 3:19 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    OneDrive link works for me, let me know if it doesn't work

    hxxps://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahc56HpktTYgxz9UjHIZG9QluSdR
    Last edited by Nielken; 30-11-2017 at 3:54 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st Dec 17, 10:56 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahc56HpktTYgxz9UjHIZG9QluSdR

    Sadly cant access this at work - can others review?
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 6th Dec 17, 10:31 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    I presume I should just pay this when it comes through then?

    I don't want it to get expensive at this point or damaging to me etc and I'm not sure what else to do.

    Still absolutely shell shocked that anybody could think parking in the wrong space deserves a £250 charge.

    World has gone mad
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Dec 17, 12:54 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yu have two sensible options

    1) Pay up within 1 month of the judgement date. This avoids a CCJ appearing on your credit file for 6 years, ruining it regardless of what you do
    2) Appeal, as the judge made an error in law - the PPC is not the current occupier of the land, and cannot have standing for trespass. In addition damages for trespass have to be proven, otherwise yu can only show nominal damages.

    This is your choice.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 6th Dec 17, 2:27 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    I was told I would receive something by post from the court so will verify exactly what it says and see what happens from there.

    Thanks everybody
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Dec 17, 4:57 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    If you don’t get something soon call. You don’t want to forget this.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 8th Dec 17, 11:00 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    Should I call the court or CPMS? I definitely am not forgetting this, need to get a mortgage next year!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Dec 17, 11:17 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    The court, obviously. They are the ones sending out the notice

    ASsuming you decide to pay, you REALLY need to ensure this is logged with the court ASAP. Dont assume the claimant will do so.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 11th Dec 17, 1:07 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    FYI for those who were interested it as District Judge Iyer.

    There is little information in the letter about what to do,how to pay etc. I'm going to call the court and make sure I get everything right, will also log the payment with the court when I make it, Thanks again everybody
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Dec 17, 1:11 PM
    • 15,934 Posts
    • 24,721 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    FYI for those who were interested it as District Judge Iyer.
    Wow - Judge Iyer has earned a reputation for ‘getting’ all this stuff and becoming a bit of a Judge Jeffreys for PPCs.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Nielken
    • By Nielken 11th Dec 17, 1:28 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Nielken
    Sorry I don't understand the Judge Jeffreys reference as to whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

    All I know is that as soon as he coached the guy from CPMS into changing it from breach of contract into trespass I was stuck, none of the stuff I'd prepared mattered and it fell apart pretty quickly
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