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  • FIRST POST
    • Lgbarfc
    • By Lgbarfc 4th Jul 17, 8:54 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Lgbarfc
    Chip & pin debit card cloning
    • #1
    • 4th Jul 17, 8:54 PM
    Chip & pin debit card cloning 4th Jul 17 at 8:54 PM
    Hi all,
    I'm in need of absolute confirmation before I potentially have a very difficult conversation with my partner.
    Can a chip & pin debit card be cloned & pin number recorded so that a criminal can make withdrawals from that card at cash machines?
    TIA
Page 1
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 4th Jul 17, 10:08 PM
    • 3,786 Posts
    • 4,111 Thanks
    robatwork
    • #2
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:08 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:08 PM
    Not by your partner, no
    • Lgbarfc
    • By Lgbarfc 4th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Lgbarfc
    • #3
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    Sorry I don't understand? Perhaps I should have included a bit more information. We each pay different bills for the household, have a joint account but have separate ones where are wages are deposited. At the end of this month he didn't have enough money in it to cover his bills. So we went through his statement & it appears there has been approximately £250 withdrawn from cash machines that he uses over the course of 6 weeks that he swears he didn't do. I am of course inclined to believe him, we cancelled his card & reordered another but when looking online I'm unsure as to whether this type of theft is possible. I'm sure there will be a good reason if it isn't but I need to know for sure.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 4th Jul 17, 10:26 PM
    • 6,590 Posts
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    PeacefulWaters
    • #4
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:26 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:26 PM
    He's fibbing.
    • Lgbarfc
    • By Lgbarfc 4th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Lgbarfc
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    I appreciate it's possible that he is but does this type of fraud/crime exist?
    • Chalkius
    • By Chalkius 4th Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    • 64 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Chalkius
    • #6
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    I'd find it likely that it was actually him, or someone he has allowed to do so. While cards can unfortunately be cloned quite easily, to get the PIN either he'll have to have been really careless and let someone else know it, or he'll have done it himself.

    So there's a small chance it wasn't him, or that he was careless, but I think it's more likely he either did it or let someone else do it. Try and find out the times and locations and see if you remember his whereabouts at the time.
    • Eco Miser
    • By Eco Miser 4th Jul 17, 11:51 PM
    • 2,893 Posts
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    Eco Miser
    • #7
    • 4th Jul 17, 11:51 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Jul 17, 11:51 PM
    Yes, it's possible to clone a chip & pin card, and to discover the pin.
    The criminals put a false front on a genuine ATM, which both records the card details, and takes pictures of the keypad being used.
    It's also possible to get the pin by shoulder surfing, and the card details with a compromised card reader in shops.
    Eco Miser
    Saving money for well over half a century
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 5th Jul 17, 12:01 AM
    • 5,034 Posts
    • 4,780 Thanks
    eskbanker
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 17, 12:01 AM
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 17, 12:01 AM
    it appears there has been approximately £250 withdrawn from cash machines that he uses over the course of 6 weeks that he swears he didn't do.
    Originally posted by Lgbarfc
    Ask yourself this:

    If someone had gone to all the effort of cloning his card for fraudulent purposes, what are the chances that they'd then use it only at ATMs that your partner uses and for a set of small withdrawals over a six week period?
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 5th Jul 17, 8:38 AM
    • 17,919 Posts
    • 13,592 Thanks
    agrinnall
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 17, 8:38 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 17, 8:38 AM
    As you'll probably have gathered from the previous replies it is technically possible for the card to be cloned and used with the PIN, but that's not likely to be what's happened in this case. Has he been able to prove he was elsewhere when any of the withdrawals were made?
    • comeandgo
    • By comeandgo 5th Jul 17, 9:08 AM
    • 1,672 Posts
    • 2,224 Thanks
    comeandgo
    Do you need to cancel his card? Surely you just change the PIN number? When someone has cloned a card I think they try to clean out your account as quickly as possible, not take dribs and drabs.
    If fraud has taken place, contact the bank who will have photos of the person making the withdrawal.
    • vacheron
    • By vacheron 5th Jul 17, 9:55 AM
    • 690 Posts
    • 579 Thanks
    vacheron
    Do you need to cancel his card? Surely you just change the PIN number? When someone has cloned a card I think they try to clean out your account as quickly as possible, not take dribs and drabs.
    If fraud has taken place, contact the bank who will have photos of the person making the withdrawal.
    Originally posted by comeandgo
    Or another approach. Mention that you are going to report it as a crime and involve the police as the (shop/bank/wherever) have told you that machine has a camera and watch for his response.
    • The rich buy assets.
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    • Alex32
    • By Alex32 8th Jul 17, 9:36 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Alex32
    Hi all,
    I'm in need of absolute confirmation before I potentially have a very difficult conversation with my partner.
    Can a chip & pin debit card be cloned & pin number recorded so that a criminal can make withdrawals from that card at cash machines?
    TIA
    Originally posted by Lgbarfc
    Yes, the card can be cloned & the pin recorded.
    Some ATM's will likely to have a CCTV camera nearby, also the cloned card can be used to buy stuff in shops & online.
    • simongregson
    • By simongregson 8th Jul 17, 10:02 PM
    • 813 Posts
    • 459 Thanks
    simongregson
    It is actually quite difficult to clone the card itself (the chip part). Most card thefts in the UK involve the pin being found out and then the physical card being used due to the difficulty in cloning the chip (pickpocketed or retained in a tampered machine), or the magnetic stripe being cloned and then the card used somewhere without chip and pin or online.

    It is not likely that someone would go to the trouble of cloning the chip (which is very complicated to do to the extent that it has only been shown to be possible by using very elaborate technology) and then would withdraw small sums of money over a long period of time. It just wouldn't be worth it...
    • Zanderman
    • By Zanderman 8th Jul 17, 10:08 PM
    • 1,203 Posts
    • 3,598 Thanks
    Zanderman
    Ask yourself this:

    If someone had gone to all the effort of cloning his card for fraudulent purposes, what are the chances that they'd then use it only at ATMs that your partner uses and for a set of small withdrawals over a six week period?
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    This^^^^

    If his card had been cloned and his pin acquired the criminal who did it would have cleared the account asap - in the realistic expectation that the very first transaction would be reported as fraud and the card stopped immediately, not 6 weeks later. The criminal would not have waited weeks taking out small sums and still be active!

    So, basically, is your partner lying or has he been defrauded by an astonishingly laid-back criminal.

    Plus, why oh why did it take him 6 weeks to notice fraudulent activity - if indeed it was fraudulent.

    Good luck with that awkward conversation.
    • msallen
    • By msallen 9th Jul 17, 5:43 AM
    • 482 Posts
    • 407 Thanks
    msallen
    So, basically, is your partner lying or has he been defrauded by an astonishingly laid-back criminal.
    Originally posted by Zanderman
    ... or has someone else got access to his card when he leaves it unattended (a work colleague or a relative for example) and has found out his PIN.
    • Ben8282
    • By Ben8282 9th Jul 17, 5:47 AM
    • 1,944 Posts
    • 848 Thanks
    Ben8282
    Can he really remember every cash withdrawal made at the ATM over the last 6 weeks?
    Somebody appears to have very rapidly jumped to the conclusion that his card had been cloned and the PIN compromised without giving any thought to other possibilities. How exactly did your partner arrive at this conclusion? Did he look at the statement and suddenly announce 'There is £250 missing from my account. My card has been cloned and my PIN recorded'?
    This is highly improbable and other replies have given some very good reasons why a fraudster would have not behaved in this manner.
    Assuming that your partner really did not make these withdrawals, have you considered other possibilities.
    If this ATM is near where he works, one highly likely possibility would be that a work colleague who has somehow found out what the PIN number is sneakily borrowing his card, making withdrawals then replacing the card.
    If the ATM is near your home, then the same as above but replace work colleague with member of your household.
    Alternatively he may have made the withdrawals himself and has forgotten. After all, neither of you appears to have checked this bank statement for over 6 weeks. This gives an impression of individuals who are not on top of their finances and record keeping.
    • wiseonesomeofthetime
    • By wiseonesomeofthetime 9th Jul 17, 6:48 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    wiseonesomeofthetime
    As some have already stated, actually answering the OP's original question, Yes, it is possible.

    Post #7 accurately describes the method.


    However, other posters are also correct in that, having gone to the trouble of obtaining card details and PINs, offenders then use those to reduce the account holder's balance as quickly as possible before it is noticed and bank alerted.


    £250 over six week period is unlikely from a cloned card, stolen details.


    Trying to paint a positive outlook to this experience, do you regularly look at his balance and useage?


    Is it possible that he was syphoning money away to treat you to a surprise gift for a forthcoming special occasion?


    "Always look on the bright side of life" ����
    • badger09
    • By badger09 9th Jul 17, 2:25 PM
    • 5,085 Posts
    • 4,281 Thanks
    badger09
    OP hasn't (apparently) revisited the thread since 5th.

    Perhaps she has her answer. Would be nice if she would report back though
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