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  • FIRST POST
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 2nd Jul 17, 7:53 PM
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    Crsaun
    Management Company Not Providing Fire Risk Assessment
    • #1
    • 2nd Jul 17, 7:53 PM
    Management Company Not Providing Fire Risk Assessment 2nd Jul 17 at 7:53 PM
    Hello everyone,

    I'm in the process of buying a flat in a 2009 build tower. My solicitor has requested the fire risk assessment, which I understand is a normal procedure. However, the management company are refusing to provide it, saying it is confidential.

    Are the management company obligated to provide the fire risk assessment? After searching the internet for hours I'm struggling to find anything that says the FRA must be provided to the buyers solicitor

    Should I be worried by the fact that they are not providing it?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Callum
Page 1
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 2nd Jul 17, 8:00 PM
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    davidmcn
    • #2
    • 2nd Jul 17, 8:00 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Jul 17, 8:00 PM
    Is the vendor entitled to a copy of it (assuming they don't already have one)?

    The thing I would be most concerned about it is whether they're proposing any works arising out of recommendations in such a report - but presumably there's a separate question about future works and they're answering that?
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 3rd Jul 17, 12:36 PM
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    Crsaun
    • #3
    • 3rd Jul 17, 12:36 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Jul 17, 12:36 PM
    Thanks for the reply.


    I don't know if the vendor has a copy. I'll have to ask my solicitor today. The same applies to whether they are proposing any work as a result of the FRA.


    Is there anything I can do if they refuse to provide the FRA?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 3rd Jul 17, 11:23 PM
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    G_M
    • #4
    • 3rd Jul 17, 11:23 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Jul 17, 11:23 PM
    I doubt the management company has to provide it to a potential buyer.

    However they almost certainly do have a duty to undertake a fire risk assessment, and to provide it to leaseholders (ie your sellers).

    So you or your solicitors could ask the seller for it.
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 4th Jul 17, 3:35 PM
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    Crsaun
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 17, 3:35 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 17, 3:35 PM
    Thanks for the reply.


    I've asked the solicitor to see if the buyer has a copy (I'm guessing this will be out of date, but it will be better than nothing).
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 6th Jul 17, 12:06 PM
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    Crsaun
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:06 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:06 PM
    The seller does not have a copy of the FRA and the management company is still refusing to provide a copy.


    The seller is proposing a new solution: a new FRA is carried out and I pay 50% of the cost (which I have been quoted as £120 in total).


    Is there another way around this or am I just going to have to pay for something I normally wouldn't have had to pay for?


    Thanks,
    Callum
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 6th Jul 17, 12:28 PM
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    davidmcn
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:28 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:28 PM
    Do you actually want or need someone to carry out a fire risk assessment before you proceed? I'd hazard a guess that 95+% of residential properties don't have a current FRA. Are there any points of concern which you or your surveyor have spotted?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jul 17, 12:32 PM
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    AdrianC
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:32 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:32 PM
    Do you actually want or need someone to carry out a fire risk assessment before you proceed? I'd hazard a guess that 95+% of residential properties don't have a current FRA. Are there any points of concern which you or your surveyor have spotted?
    Originally posted by davidmcn
    Flat in a tower.

    I think we can guess the concerns. I think we can also guess why the agent is not handing copies around.

    Not sure £120 will cover much of a fire risk assessment, though.
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 6th Jul 17, 12:57 PM
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    Crsaun
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:57 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 17, 12:57 PM
    I don't have any particular concerns, I just became a bit worried when the management company refused to provide the FRA to my solicitor.


    Is £120 too low?


    Could I report the management company to the local fire authority (who I believe are responsible for enforcing the legislation surrounding the FRA)? On what grounds I'm not entirely sure :s


    Thanks.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 6th Jul 17, 1:03 PM
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    G_M
    The seller does not have a copy of the FRA and the management company is still refusing to provide a copy.
    Originally posted by Crsaun
    The ManCo is refusing to provide a copy to the leaseholder?? Unlikely.
    a new FRA is carried out and I pay 50% of the cost (which I have been quoted as £120 in total).
    Thismust surely be a FRA limited to the flat.

    A proper FRA for a block of flats (how many storeys? how many flats?) would be much more.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jul 17, 1:10 PM
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    AdrianC
    I don't have any particular concerns, I just became a bit worried when the management company refused to provide the FRA to my solicitor.
    Originally posted by Crsaun
    It may be as simple as they are not comfortable with it, as it predates certain recent issues.

    Is £120 too low?
    Think about it for a minute. You are asking somebody to do a check of the property, using their professional skill and experience to identify any possible risks, write that up, AND to insure themselves against any comeback.

    Are you looking for a quick once-around of just the flat itself? Or are you wanting to know about the risks around the entire building, AFFECTING the flat? Does a couple of hours, including writing up time, sound realistic for that?

    Could I report the management company to the local fire authority (who I believe are responsible for enforcing the legislation surrounding the FRA)?
    Of course you can. If you think it's the biggest problem they're currently facing, and might actually get somewhere...
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 6th Jul 17, 2:00 PM
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    Crsaun
    Thanks for the comments.


    The management company are just refusing me (the buyer) a copy.


    Well, I know an FRA is just for the common areas i.e. stairwells and corridors etc., but for a large tower block this adds up. I've seen FRA templates which do not seem too onerous but I agree that £120 is at the lower end of the spectrum.
    • aneary
    • By aneary 6th Jul 17, 2:07 PM
    • 315 Posts
    • 193 Thanks
    aneary
    Thanks for the comments.


    The management company are just refusing me (the buyer) a copy.


    Well, I know an FRA is just for the common areas i.e. stairwells and corridors etc., but for a large tower block this adds up. I've seen FRA templates which do not seem too onerous but I agree that £120 is at the lower end of the spectrum.
    Originally posted by Crsaun
    Well ask the seller to ask the management company for a copy.
    • ££sc££
    • By ££sc££ 6th Jul 17, 2:43 PM
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    ££sc££
    this is bizarre, is the management company a member of ARMA? As providing the FRA is a standard question on the LPE1 leasehold enquiry form that ARMA developed with the Law Society, RICS etc

    That said we wouldn't provide it to a buyer, only our leaseholder or their solicitors (the vendor).

    I cannot understand how you can get one carried out for £120. The assessor will need to survey the whole building - will they even be able to gain access to all the common areas, landlord's roof voids, landlord cupboard with pipes etc?

    If the landlord really won't provide to their leaseholder i'd be threatening to pull out as i'd be massively concerned about what they are hiding.....and if major works are needed to meet Future regs the cost that these will be and the implications for this on my service charge, once i'd bought it
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 6th Jul 17, 4:45 PM
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    xylophone
    The leaseholder could ask his solicitor to check whether he has a legal right to to sight of the FRA - if so, the solicitor could request it with a threat of court action for non compliance.
    • sheff6107
    • By sheff6107 6th Jul 17, 8:05 PM
    • 403 Posts
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    sheff6107
    Management companies will usually supply these things for a fee. If they are passing over such an opportunity to make a profit it sounds like they don't have it.
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 10th Jul 17, 9:41 AM
    • 13 Posts
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    Crsaun
    Update: the management company are not willing to providing the FRA to the owner of the flat. However, they've said that my solicitor can make an appointment to go to their offices and see the FRA. Hopefully I can get this sorted this week!
    • Crsaun
    • By Crsaun 14th Jul 17, 2:27 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    Crsaun
    My solicitor is insisting that a copy of the FRA is needed for my file and the option to arrange an appointment with the management company to see the FRA is not an option.


    I have contacted the management company myself and they are still refusing to provide a copy to my solicitor saying that it is a constantly changing document.


    I have asked the current owner of the flat to request a copy and they said they can't get one either.


    I really don't know what to do. Any suggestions? Should I just pull out of the purchase?


    Thanks.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Jul 17, 8:18 AM
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    AdrianC
    Your solicitor can insist all he likes. It's your decision. There is no legal requirement.
    • phill99
    • By phill99 15th Jul 17, 11:30 AM
    • 7,869 Posts
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    phill99
    Something tells me they don't have one. Or it is so out of date that in the light of the West London fire they know that it is inadequate.
    Eat vegetables and fear no creditors, rather than eat duck and hide.
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