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  • FIRST POST
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 1st Jul 17, 3:24 AM
    • 201Posts
    • 29Thanks
    CYPER
    Support needed for my ET Claim - Disability Discrimination + Constructive Dismissal
    • #1
    • 1st Jul 17, 3:24 AM
    Support needed for my ET Claim - Disability Discrimination + Constructive Dismissal 1st Jul 17 at 3:24 AM
    Hi everyone,

    The main hearing for my ET claim is in less than 1 month, so while most of the work has been done I would really appreciate some moral support.

    I am a litigant in person, but apart from that can you advise what other details is it safe to share on a public forum, without jeopardising my claim?
    Can I tell the whole story without changing anything?

    Thank you.
Page 2
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 12th Jul 17, 9:36 AM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    It is important to echo sangie's point here. Nobody can help you to write your witness statement by providing information, because it is by default your recollection and no one else's. You can refer to documents and use those to aid your memory, but referring to or using other people's recollections is a bad idea and will almost certainly undermine your evidence.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • MacMickster
    • By MacMickster 12th Jul 17, 10:48 AM
    • 2,566 Posts
    • 7,770 Thanks
    MacMickster

    These sorts of letter are very common nowadays, but are largely scaremongering. Unlikely the county court, you cannot have a costs order made against you in the Tribunal simply because you failed to beat an offer made by the other side. It takes much more than that. It is fair for sangie to warn you that it does happen, but there usually has to be something more for an order to be made, such as clearly unreasonable or vexatious conduct. Generally speaking costs orders are still unusual.
    Originally posted by Crazy Jamie
    Not always just scaremongering. This report published yesterday http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40572169 is regarding an employer seeking £577K from a former employee in respect of their costs in successfully defending an unfair dismissal claim at a tribunal.

    While this is certainly unusual (hence why it gets reported nationally) and probably at the top end of the scale of what could happen, I don't think that it is fair to the OP to simply gloss over the prospect of a claim for costs if they don't win their case at a tribunal.
    "When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 12th Jul 17, 11:22 AM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    Not always just scaremongering. This report published yesterday http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40572169 is regarding an employer seeking £577K from a former employee in respect of their costs in successfully defending an unfair dismissal claim at a tribunal.

    While this is certainly unusual (hence why it gets reported nationally) and probably at the top end of the scale of what could happen, I don't think that it is fair to the OP to simply gloss over the prospect of a claim for costs if they don't win their case at a tribunal.
    Originally posted by MacMickster
    I'm not 'glossing over' a potential claim for costs, and I do acknowledge that it is important that threats of costs should be properly considered, but equally linking to an individual extreme example on the BBC website (and indeed, one where an award hasn't actually been made yet) is hardly helpful either. You refer to that as 'probably' at the top end of the scale as to what could happen, but there's no 'probably' about it. It is right at the top end of what might happen, and therefore almost certainly has no bearing on the OP here.

    I agree that costs warning letters are not always scaremongering, which is why I put 'largely'. The reality is that such letters are a common tactic used by Respondent solicitors against Claimants even in situations where those solicitors know that there is no realistic prospect of them recovering their costs even if they win. Even more when against Claimants that are not legally represented. Of course anyone receiving a costs warning letter should properly consider it, but it is equally important to be aware that costs orders in the Employment Tribunal are still unusual.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • MacMickster
    • By MacMickster 12th Jul 17, 12:05 PM
    • 2,566 Posts
    • 7,770 Thanks
    MacMickster
    I'm not 'glossing over' a potential claim for costs, and I do acknowledge that it is important that threats of costs should be properly considered, but equally linking to an individual extreme example on the BBC website (and indeed, one where an award hasn't actually been made yet) is hardly helpful either. You refer to that as 'probably' at the top end of the scale as to what could happen, but there's no 'probably' about it. It is right at the top end of what might happen, and therefore almost certainly has no bearing on the OP here.

    I agree that costs warning letters are not always scaremongering, which is why I put 'largely'. The reality is that such letters are a common tactic used by Respondent solicitors against Claimants even in situations where those solicitors know that there is no realistic prospect of them recovering their costs even if they win. Even more when against Claimants that are not legally represented. Of course anyone receiving a costs warning letter should properly consider it, but it is equally important to be aware that costs orders in the Employment Tribunal are still unusual.
    Originally posted by Crazy Jamie
    My experience of the MSE forum is that many who post queries are simply looking for support of their own position. Unless alternative perspectives are made very clear (including an extreme example) then words such as "largely" will be interpreted as "always".

    Whilst cost orders ARE very unusual the OP needs to do their own research. Does their employer (or solicitor) have form in this area? Do they suspect that their former employer may try to be vindictive and make an example of them as a warning to others?

    In the case that I have referred to, whether or not the employer is ultimately successful in their claim for costs, I suspect that they will consequently face far fewer tribunal claims from sacked employees in the future. A deterrent effect. The former employee is probably going to face a period of extreme stress in her life that she certainly never envisaged when she brought her claim to the tribunal.

    The OP clearly feels that they have been particularly unfairly treated by their employer and, at this stage, their tribunal claim is a matter of principle. I suspect that the OP is not particularly well off, or else they would have proper legal representation for the tribunal. They do need to be fully aware that there is a possible financial downside which could, just possibly, be ruinous for them before deciding whether to accept the offer made by the former employer.
    Last edited by MacMickster; 12-07-2017 at 12:08 PM.
    "When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Jul 17, 2:01 PM
    • 4,194 Posts
    • 6,920 Thanks
    sangie595
    My experience of the MSE forum is that many who post queries are simply looking for support of their own position. Unless alternative perspectives are made very clear (including an extreme example) then words such as "largely" will be interpreted as "always".

    Whilst cost orders ARE very unusual the OP needs to do their own research. Does their employer (or solicitor) have form in this area? Do they suspect that their former employer may try to be vindictive and make an example of them as a warning to others?

    In the case that I have referred to, whether or not the employer is ultimately successful in their claim for costs, I suspect that they will consequently face far fewer tribunal claims from sacked employees in the future. A deterrent effect. The former employee is probably going to face a period of extreme stress in her life that she certainly never envisaged when she brought her claim to the tribunal.

    The OP clearly feels that they have been particularly unfairly treated by their employer and, at this stage, their tribunal claim is a matter of principle. I suspect that the OP is not particularly well off, or else they would have proper legal representation for the tribunal. They do need to be fully aware that there is a possible financial downside which could, just possibly, be ruinous for them before deciding whether to accept the offer made by the former employer.
    Originally posted by MacMickster
    I think that's a very realistic stance to take. I also prefer to make the risks transparent. We have multiple posts daily from people who have decided that they have rights because they read it somewhere, and the actual fact is that they don't and they misread it. And possibilities often turn into certainties in people's minds.
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 13th Jul 17, 9:09 AM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    My experience of the MSE forum is that many who post queries are simply looking for support of their own position. Unless alternative perspectives are made very clear (including an extreme example) then words such as "largely" will be interpreted as "always".

    Whilst cost orders ARE very unusual the OP needs to do their own research. Does their employer (or solicitor) have form in this area? Do they suspect that their former employer may try to be vindictive and make an example of them as a warning to others?

    In the case that I have referred to, whether or not the employer is ultimately successful in their claim for costs, I suspect that they will consequently face far fewer tribunal claims from sacked employees in the future. A deterrent effect. The former employee is probably going to face a period of extreme stress in her life that she certainly never envisaged when she brought her claim to the tribunal.

    The OP clearly feels that they have been particularly unfairly treated by their employer and, at this stage, their tribunal claim is a matter of principle. I suspect that the OP is not particularly well off, or else they would have proper legal representation for the tribunal. They do need to be fully aware that there is a possible financial downside which could, just possibly, be ruinous for them before deciding whether to accept the offer made by the former employer.
    Originally posted by MacMickster
    I understand your position, and the part I've underlined is a good point. In my view the risks of an adverse costs order in the Employment Tribunal are often over stated by members in this forum, hence why I took the approach of noting how unlikely it is and then explaining what is actually required for one to be made. My concern is that people will be scared off by these warnings when they have no need to be, but I absolutely take the point that there is a also the danger of people ploughing ahead in a case where they are genuinely at risk of costs. Ultimately it's about trying to find some sort of balance in a situation where we can never fully know the circumstances of a particular case or indeed the mindset of the individual asking for help, and views will always differ on how we go about doing that.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 14th Jul 17, 1:44 AM
    • 201 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    I read everything with great care. Thanks for your comments.

    Another question: How do I properly include Case Law into my witness statement. What is the right format? Examples would be best.

    Thank you.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 14th Jul 17, 6:36 AM
    • 4,194 Posts
    • 6,920 Thanks
    sangie595
    I read everything with great care. Thanks for your comments.

    Another question: How do I properly include Case Law into my witness statement. What is the right format? Examples would be best.

    Thank you.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    Your witness statement is a statement of what you witnessed. Did you actually witness any case law? No? Then it doesn't belong in there A witness statement is not legal argument. You make your legal argument to the tribunal separately.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 14th Jul 17, 8:44 AM
    • 3,175 Posts
    • 2,893 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Your witness statement is a statement of what you witnessed. Did you actually witness any case law? No? Then it doesn't belong in there A witness statement is not legal argument. You make your legal argument to the tribunal separately.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Indeed.

    OP, is there no way you can get some professional help with this? Whilst people can and do successfully represent themselves at employment tribunals, discrimination cases do tend to be more complex.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 15th Jul 17, 1:05 AM
    • 201 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    Your witness statement is a statement of what you witnessed. Did you actually witness any case law? No? Then it doesn't belong in there A witness statement is not legal argument. You make your legal argument to the tribunal separately.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Thanks. So then how it is best to apply another case to my own case. Do I just mention it to the Judge?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Jul 17, 8:18 AM
    • 4,194 Posts
    • 6,920 Thanks
    sangie595
    Thanks. So then how it is best to apply another case to my own case. Do I just mention it to the Judge?
    Originally posted by CYPER
    I am sorry, but employment tribunal by remote control just isn't possible. You cannot expect people here to guide you through even the most basic of steps, every inch of the way, and without any knowledge of anything. A quick "point in question" is one thing, but the level of the questions that you are repeatedly asking says that you are totally unprepared for going to a tribunal. This board really isn't designed for what you want. As far as I know, there isn't anywhere that is.

    This book is costly, but it's good https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HCEWBJU/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&c reativeASIN=B00HCEWBJU&linkCode=as2&!!!!!emplotrib ucla-21
    .. and past that I must echo Undervalued's comment - you really need to look for some method of getting advice or support. Or you must do a lot more research yourself. We cannot answer a flow of questions about multiple aspects in the detail that you want. Sorry, but hand holding of this degree isn't possible.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 15th Jul 17, 3:07 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    I am sorry, but employment tribunal by remote control just isn't possible. You cannot expect people here to guide you through even the most basic of steps, every inch of the way, and without any knowledge of anything. A quick "point in question" is one thing, but the level of the questions that you are repeatedly asking says that you are totally unprepared for going to a tribunal. This board really isn't designed for what you want. As far as I know, there isn't anywhere that is.

    This book is costly, but it's good https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HCEWBJU/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&c reativeASIN=B00HCEWBJU&linkCode=as2&!!!!!emplotrib ucla-21
    .. and past that I must echo Undervalued's comment - you really need to look for some method of getting advice or support. Or you must do a lot more research yourself. We cannot answer a flow of questions about multiple aspects in the detail that you want. Sorry, but hand holding of this degree isn't possible.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    In that case, can I ask you politely to not participate in this thread.
    Your posts are the exact definition of patronising as commented by IAmWales.
    I find them passive aggressive and not really helping.
    You have very limited information about me and my case, therefore you are in no position to say that I am totally unprepared.
    I bought that book, I read that book and my very specific question is not answered there.

    So if you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from posting in this thread. Let other people who are genuinely positive contribute.

    I would appreciate if you restrain yourself from further polemics on your rights to participate in my thread. I know this a free forum where everyone can voice their opinion. I just ask you nicely to go find other threads to do this. Thank you.
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 15th Jul 17, 3:22 PM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    Thanks. So then how it is best to apply another case to my own case. Do I just mention it to the Judge?
    Originally posted by CYPER
    After the witness evidence is completed, both sides then get the chance to make closing submissions, essentially explaining why they should win. That is the time to make reference to case law.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 15th Jul 17, 4:15 PM
    • 3,175 Posts
    • 2,893 Thanks
    Undervalued
    In that case, can I ask you politely to not participate in this thread.
    Your posts are the exact definition of patronising as commented by IAmWales.
    I find them passive aggressive and not really helping.
    You have very limited information about me and my case, therefore you are in no position to say that I am totally unprepared.
    I bought that book, I read that book and my very specific question is not answered there.

    So if you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from posting in this thread. Let other people who are genuinely positive contribute.

    I would appreciate if you restrain yourself from further polemics on your rights to participate in my thread. I know this a free forum where everyone can voice their opinion. I just ask you nicely to go find other threads to do this. Thank you.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    Sometimes the best advice is that which you least want to hear!
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 15th Jul 17, 4:51 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    After the witness evidence is completed, both sides then get the chance to make closing submissions, essentially explaining why they should win. That is the time to make reference to case law.
    Originally posted by Crazy Jamie
    So what is the correct way to make reference?
    Do I just say in my closing submission something along the lines: "and I believe that my case is alike the case of The Government Legal Service v Brookes UKEAT/0302/16/RN in all relevant aspects"
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Jul 17, 5:08 PM
    • 4,194 Posts
    • 6,920 Thanks
    sangie595
    In that case, can I ask you politely to not participate in this thread.
    Your posts are the exact definition of patronising as commented by IAmWales.
    I find them passive aggressive and not really helping.
    You have very limited information about me and my case, therefore you are in no position to say that I am totally unprepared.
    I bought that book, I read that book and my very specific question is not answered there.

    So if you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from posting in this thread. Let other people who are genuinely positive contribute.

    I would appreciate if you restrain yourself from further polemics on your rights to participate in my thread. I know this a free forum where everyone can voice their opinion. I just ask you nicely to go find other threads to do this. Thank you.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    This is a public forum, and if you do not want people to comment, do not post on it. I do indeed have very limited information about you and your case - which is precisely the point I made to you! You are expecting advice from people in specific detail, and that book does, in fact, cover exactly the process of a hearing and what happens in what order. You had already had an explanation of exactly what a witness statement is, and a template of how to write one, but then came back twice along very basic questions about putting things in witness statements that are not things you witnessed. These are very, very basic things.

    It is not bad advice to tell you that you need to get help or to do more work on understanding the process. It is practical and essential advice. With respect, if, as you claim, you know what your are doing and have read and understood that book, then you aren't going to be here asking if you can put case law arguments in a witness statement. Or asking if you can contact other people to see what they witnessed to put in your witness statement. These are fundamentals.

    Just because you don't like the advice doesn't mean it isn't the best advice you will get.

    And I will post where I like. You don't have a say in that.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 15th Jul 17, 5:13 PM
    • 3,175 Posts
    • 2,893 Thanks
    Undervalued
    This is a public forum, and if you do not want people to comment, do not post on it. I do indeed have very limited information about you and your case - which is precisely the point I made to you! You are expecting advice from people in specific detail, and that book does, in fact, cover exactly the process of a hearing and what happens in what order. You had already had an explanation of exactly what a witness statement is, and a template of how to write one, but then came back twice along very basic questions about putting things in witness statements that are not things you witnessed. These are very, very basic things.

    It is not bad advice to tell you that you need to get help or to do more work on understanding the process. It is practical and essential advice. With respect, if, as you claim, you know what your are doing and have read and understood that book, then you aren't going to be here asking if you can put case law arguments in a witness statement. Or asking if you can contact other people to see what they witnessed to put in your witness statement. These are fundamentals.

    Just because you don't like the advice doesn't mean it isn't the best advice you will get.

    And I will post where I like. You don't have a say in that.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    My thoughts exactly!
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 15th Jul 17, 5:23 PM
    • 1,949 Posts
    • 3,095 Thanks
    k3lvc
    In that case, can I ask you politely to not participate in this thread.
    Your posts are the exact definition of patronising as commented by IAmWales.
    I find them passive aggressive and not really helping.
    You have very limited information about me and my case, therefore you are in no position to say that I am totally unprepared.
    I bought that book, I read that book and my very specific question is not answered there.

    So if you have nothing constructive to say, please refrain from posting in this thread. Let other people who are genuinely positive contribute.

    I would appreciate if you restrain yourself from further polemics on your rights to participate in my thread. I know this a free forum where everyone can voice their opinion. I just ask you nicely to go find other threads to do this. Thank you.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    Seriously bad call - alienating one of the most experienced members because you're not getting you the answer you want a) isn't good protocol and b) leads me to want to put money on how your case is going to go (and it shouldn't surprise you that this isn't in your favour)

    Maybe a reconsidering of attitude will let you re-evaluate how (or even whether) you pursue this case because sure as hell arrogance and self belief aren't going to win it for you
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 16th Jul 17, 12:50 PM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    So what is the correct way to make reference?
    Do I just say in my closing submission something along the lines: "and I believe that my case is alike the case of The Government Legal Service v Brookes UKEAT/0302/16/RN in all relevant aspects"
    Originally posted by CYPER
    Yes, just like that. Though you don't need to include the reference. Chances are the Judge will already be aware of it, but if not you can refer them to the copy of the judgment, or the part of the judgment that you say is relevant.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 18th Jul 17, 11:21 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    Yes, just like that. Though you don't need to include the reference. Chances are the Judge will already be aware of it, but if not you can refer them to the copy of the judgment, or the part of the judgment that you say is relevant.
    Originally posted by Crazy Jamie
    Thank you for you help. I really appreciate it

    I have a few more ET related questions:

    1 - Received respondent's unsigned witness statements with the explanation that they will be signed just before the hearing. I reckon this is because the solicitor has not met with the witnesses when finalising them. Is that normal?

    2 - What would you advise me to bring with me at the hearing? I guess blank A4 paper, a couple of pens, post it notes, laptop maybe. Enough copies of my witness statement and the bundle obviously. Anything else?

    3 - Is it allowed when questioning witnesses to read from a sheet of paper. Basically prepare cross examination questions at home and read them to the witnesses? Or is this not a good idea?
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