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  • FIRST POST
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 26th Jun 17, 8:14 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 26Thanks
    Disco1972
    Birmingham Airport APCOA PCN
    • #1
    • 26th Jun 17, 8:14 PM
    Birmingham Airport APCOA PCN 26th Jun 17 at 8:14 PM
    Really need some advice on if I should pay or appeal against a PCN from Birmingham Airport. I've read lots of the treads and kind of thinking I should appeal but before I do and end up over the 14 day £50 early payment bribe expires thought id ask you guys for your help?


    They pictured "my car" stopping on the reds and "the driver" opening the boot and letting a passenger out of the vehicle outside of the drop off point. The reason "the driver" didn't go to the £1 drop off was because the traffic was heaving and queuing all the way into the airport. They didn't realise they'd broken the parking "contract" until after the event though as they're not a frequent visitor to the airport and signs are small especially regarding drop offs.


    Anyway read and understand all the stuff about private land, not an actually a fine and they have to sue me for breach of contract if I don't pay but do you think from what I've mentioned they'll drop the case if I appeal? also is the below template the correct one I should use for the first appeal? if yes should I also prompt them for a POPLA code ready for the next stage?


    Any advice on my case will be really appreciated. Just worried with my luck I'll end up getting sued paying stupid money as opposed to accepting the £50.


    Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.
    Last edited by Disco1972; 27-06-2017 at 9:07 AM. Reason: On advise
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Jun 17, 8:18 PM
    • 16,570 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 26th Jun 17, 8:18 PM
    • #2
    • 26th Jun 17, 8:18 PM
    just send the template "as is" with the pcn reference , RK name and address etc

    do not admit who was driving

    edit post #1 to remove any hint of who was driving , we dont care and the PPC`s monitor forums like this one and its a simple matter to take screenshots ("the walls have ears")

    assume I was driving

    they will refuse the appeal and issue a popla code, then use a recent BHX APCOA POPLA appeal from other recent threads about the same thing

    once the appeal goes in , APCOA will tell popla to drop it, at which point you have won

    so just do as others have done before you

    bear in mind bylaws apply , so they cannot issue legitimate parking charges in this manner (even though they do so)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 26th Jun 17, 9:07 PM
    • 15,565 Posts
    • 24,305 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 26th Jun 17, 9:07 PM
    • #3
    • 26th Jun 17, 9:07 PM
    Don't even think of paying. This is easily winnable, maybe with the initial appeal, definitely at POPLA. APCOA don't sue - they wouldn't want to risk their cash cow being slaughtered by a judge. Once a judge rules against an airport stopping scam PCN, the whole house of cards will come tumbling down at BHX, LJLA, Luton, Robin Hood, Newcastle where various PPCs are coining (and conning) it in from naive and intimidated motorists.

    Not one of them have ever sued a motorist in an airport stopping case.

    the 14 day £50 early payment bribe
    Quite correct with your descriptor. A bribe for you to give them no trouble, 'gratefully' send them the lower amount - and disenfranchise yourself from appealing to POPLA - with an absolutely guaranteed win. Don't fall for this trick!
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 26-06-2017 at 9:10 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 27th Jun 17, 9:02 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 17, 9:02 AM
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 17, 9:02 AM
    Ok I'm going to send the appeal based on what you guys have advised. Many thanks for the pointers. I'll update the thread with the outcome. Also 1st post edited as advised. Thanks again
    Last edited by Disco1972; 27-06-2017 at 9:08 AM.
    • Mizmo
    • By Mizmo 15th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Mizmo
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:33 PM
    Hi unfortunately i am in the same predicament and truth be told i didnt even see the red lines... I worked at the airport a very long time ago and used a side road to drop my friend off (same road I would use whilst working there) this time I got a letter thought the lost about a on I had to pay. Do I just copy and paste the template disco had put out?? Help is much appreciated
    • Mizmo
    • By Mizmo 15th Jul 17, 10:35 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Mizmo
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:35 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:35 PM
    By!Mizmo15th Jul 17, 9:33 PM

    MIZMOView public profileSend private messageFind more postsView all thanked postsAdd to contacts

    Hi unfortunately i am in the same predicament and truth be told i didnt even see the red lines... I worked at the airport a very long time ago and used a side road to drop my friend off (same road I would use whilst working there) this time I got a letter through the post about a pcn I had to pay. Do I just copy and paste the template disco had put out?? Help is much appreciated
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Jul 17, 10:46 PM
    • 15,565 Posts
    • 24,305 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:46 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:46 PM
    Hi unfortunately i am in the same predicament and truth be told i didnt even see the red lines... I worked at the airport a very long time ago and used a side road to drop my friend off (same road I would use whilst working there) this time I got a letter thought the lost about a on I had to pay. Do I just copy and paste the template disco had put out?? Help is much appreciated
    Originally posted by Mizmo
    New thread of your own please. Please proof read your posts before submitting to avoid gobbledygook. Otherwise they don't make much sense.

    Have you read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 will suffice for now, which will guide you through the early stages of this?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 15th Jul 17, 11:13 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972
    • #8
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:13 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:13 PM
    Hi Mizmo, the more you read the more you'll realise how many people are paying these "invoices" where they really don't have to! Yes use the template I posted but read the NEWBIES tread first. (Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!) it'll help you understand what the stages are.


    I'm currently waiting APCOA to reject my appeal (which from the posts they will) and then I'm ready to send my appeal to POPLA which I've already mostly prepared in advance. If my case follows many of the others, APCOA will fold when POPLA issue my appeal.


    Follow the advise from Umkomaas and Redx, they really know their stuff. You'll see if you start reading thread from some of the many they have helped before us.


    All the best.
    • Mizmo
    • By Mizmo 15th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Mizmo
    • #9
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:19 PM
    I did read the 'newbies' thread but I still can't make sense of it all.

    I'm new to this site so I must apologise if I haven't done things the right way (I did try to edit that lost bit I couldn't)

    I will start a new thread and hopefully get the help I need.

    Thank you guys
    • Mizmo
    • By Mizmo 15th Jul 17, 11:26 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Mizmo
    Another thing before o start my own thread,where can I find out what all these acronyms mean?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jul 17, 11:40 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,182 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    In the NEWBIES thread...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 24th Jul 17, 9:36 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972
    Ok, I'm within a week of the 35 days that APCOA stated they would take to review my appeal. The 21 days have also passed that is mentioned on my appeal for DPA. Not sure if this has any strength for the appeal though?


    "consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days"


    I received email confirmation from APCOA that my appeal is in process but nothing since. Do APCOA always reply against appeals? If the 35 days expire without hearing from them will this be the end of the case?


    What's the norm with appeals? i.e. do they leave it right until the last few days before rejecting the appeal?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Jul 17, 9:49 AM
    • 15,565 Posts
    • 24,305 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Not sure if this has any strength for the appeal though?
    Not really.

    consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days"
    What does the DPA say about failure to reply within the deadline? Check it out.

    If the 35 days expire without hearing from them will this be the end of the case?
    Definitely not. Don't forget that unless/until the PCN is cancelled, they have 6 years to pursue you through the courts. They don't do 'court' (at the moment).

    What's the norm with appeals? i.e. do they leave it right until the last few days before rejecting the appeal?
    Pretty standard behaviour.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 2nd Aug 17, 3:06 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972
    Ok it's now passed the 35 days and still nothing from APCOA!


    "Your appeal will be considered and a response sent you via email/letter within 35 days. Should your appeal be unsuccessful, your letter will explain the next steps for you to follow. "


    I even sent this email before the 35 days expired trying to prompt a response but nothing!


    "Dear Sirs,


    I have not received a response to the appeal dated 27th June 2017. 21 days have expired as stipulated in Section 10 Notice under the DPA. This will be noted in the appeal to POPLA should this appeal be rejected.


    Please review this appeal and either cancel the charge or provide the necessary POPLA code. "


    Where does this leave me now? Don't really want this hanging for the next 6 years although surely if this did go to next stage with POPLA or even court the fact they have failed their own timeline would work in my favour?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Aug 17, 3:08 PM
    • 16,570 Posts
    • 20,730 Thanks
    Redx
    I am afraid that you are at the "hanging about" stage and there is nothing you can do about it

    you could complain to the BPA by email that APCOA have failed the BPA CoP in not making a decision, but dont expect it to do anything

    this is an unregulated industry, so it is what it is
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 2nd Aug 17, 4:04 PM
    • 2,376 Posts
    • 2,905 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    if you are stuck waiting and want to do some thing ........

    It may help to try your MP


    this is a copy of a post by Bargepole ....

    "Some action at last:

    http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/parkingcodeofpractice.html

    This Private Member's Bill has Government and cross-party support, and stands a good chance of making it into statute.

    The full text of the clauses will be published nearer the date of the second reading, but my sources tell me it's something we should support.

    Now would be a good time to write to your MP urging them to support it."

    let here know that there have been many complaints about this car park scam

    good luck

    Ralph
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 2nd Aug 17, 6:14 PM
    • 7,382 Posts
    • 6,426 Thanks
    The Deep
    If it gooes to PoPLA and you appeal on the basis thst it is not relevent land APCOA will cry uncle. Here is one I won against the a couple of weeks ago. It was for a station car park, but it is still non relevant land.


    POPLA APPEAL - Bye-Laws Land – No Keeper Liability

    This is an appeal about a Parking Charge Notice issued by the operator for an alleged breach of the the company's terms and conditions in a railway station car park. The operator confirms that this land is covered by Railway Bye- laws and therefore it is not relevant land for the purposes of the keeper liability provisions of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act, under which it says the charge has not been issued..

    The operator does not know who the driver was, or the owner, and it would appear that they have made an assumption that was that person. If so, I put them to strict proof of this.

    If they are relying on Elliot v Loake, this was a criminal conviction obtained from forensic evidence and has been rejected by many judges as not relevent.

    If they are relying on the outcome of Beavis v Parking Eye in the Supreme Court the circumstances bear no resemblance. Beavis took place in a free car park in a shopping centre limited to two hours where there was no opportunity to purchase extra time, and overstayed by almost an hour. The PPC were paying £52,000 a year to manage this car park and PCNs were their only source of income. It was deemed that the charge of £85 was reasonable as there was a necessity to ensure a high turnover of traffic and to discourage abuse from railway commuters.

    In the present case, the parking fee was paid, there was no obstruction, and this therefore amounts to an unlawful penalty.

    Only the land owner, in this case the Train Operating Company, can take action, and only against the driver or owner, in a Magistrates Court, within six months of the date of the alleged offence, that date has now passed.

    Spaces were poorly marked, in some cases there was no marking at all, I attach a photographs taken a few weeks later and put APCOA strict proof that the markings were regularly maintained.

    The signs are difficult to read, being up to three metres off the ground with letters as small as 5mm.in white on a pale blue background. It is impossible to see how they are sufficiently prominent to form a contract. I would refer you to Excel v Martin Cutts where the judge disallowed the claim due to poor signs.

    The PCN was incorrectly issued by the wrong company under wrong law to the wrong person.. The time has now passed for the alleged offence to be prosecuted in a criminal court, and I request that this charge is therefore cancelled.

    Furthermore, it was issued eight months ago and appealed in time. It is only now, some seven months later have I been issued with a PoPLA code. In the meantime I have been subjected to a barrage of threats, begging letters, lies and inducements by debt collection agencies, contrary to the BPA Code of Practice...

    Finally, the amount the PPC think they are owed by someone. be it driver, keeper, or owner, is confusing. It started at £60/100, went up to £160, was then reduced to £75, and later came back to £60, rising to £100 if not paid. Do they not know how much they want?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++

    APCOA Parking have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.

    Yours sincerely

    Last edited by The Deep; 02-08-2017 at 6:20 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 7th Aug 17, 10:51 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972
    Finally received the appeal rejection letter from APCOA (late). I've got my POPLA appeal ready but notice APCOA state on the letter that "APCOA have not claimed to and do not work, issue or seek payment under POFA as this land is covered by Bye-laws".


    POFA is listed as part of my appeal quite a bit, can this still be used?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Aug 17, 11:21 AM
    • 15,565 Posts
    • 24,305 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I've got my POPLA appeal ready but notice APCOA state on the letter that "APCOA have not claimed to and do not work, issue or seek payment under POFA as this land is covered by Bye-laws".
    Just aimed at confusing the naive into thinking that APCOA have some statutory authority in this, and meekly pay up. 'Laws' often makes people think of authority.

    POFA is listed as part of my appeal quite a bit, can this still be used?
    I'd leave it in because they are pursuing the keeper, and it will give APCOA plenty to deal with if they are going to contest your POPLA appeal. Under byelaws it's the owner, who isn't necessarily the keeper, who should be pursued - and not by APCOA, but by the airport themselves. In any case APCOA have no means of establishing who the owner of the vehicle is.

    Are we going to see your draft for critique before submission to POPLA?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Disco1972
    • By Disco1972 7th Aug 17, 11:33 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Disco1972




    A notice to keeper was issued on ********** and received by me, the registered keeper of ********* in respect of an alleged contravention of ‘BREACH OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE’’ at Birmingham Airport on ***********. I am writing to you as the registered keeper and would be grateful if you would please consider my appeal for the following reasons.





    1)APCOA not using POFA 2012 - Byelaws
    2) Airport Act 1986
    3) Non-compliance with requirements and timetable set out in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4) Not relevant Land under POFA 2012; no registered keeper liability (ref POPLA case Steve Macallan 6062356150)
    5) The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103)
    6) Misleading and unclear signage
    7) No landowner contract nor legal standing to form contracts or charge drivers
    8 Photo evidence appears doctored
    9) Not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and Breakdown of loss of business



    10) APCOA failing deadlines


    1) From APCOA’s rejection to my initial appeal, it appears that APCOA are attempting to claim the charge is liable to them under airport byelaws. I reject this and put them strictly to proof on which byelaw they claim is broken, and in any case, why this would result in an obligation to pay APCOA.





    2) Airport byelawsdo not apply to any road to which the public have access, as they are subject to road traffic enactments.

    Airport Act 1986
    65 Control of road traffic at designated airports
    (1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the road traffic enactments shall apply in relation to roads which are within a designated airport but to which the public does not have access as they apply in relation to roads to which the public has access.

    Both the Airport Act and Airport byelaws say thatbyelaws only apply to roads to which road traffic enactments do not apply





    3) If APCOA want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and APCOA have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the place where the parking event took place, your Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule (in particular paragraph 9). I have had no evidence that APCOA have complied with these BPA Code requirements for ANPR issued tickets so require them to evidence their compliance to POPLA.
    The BPA code of practice also says '20.14 when you serve a Notice to Keeper, you must also include information telling the keeper the ‘reasonable cause’ you had for asking the DVLA for their details.' The PCN does not provide this information; this does not comply with the BPA code point 20.14.









    4) Airport land is not 'relevant land' as it is already covered bystatutory bylaws and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. I put the Operator to strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the Airport Authority that this land is not already covered by bylaws.


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