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  • FIRST POST
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 18th Jun 17, 9:20 PM
    • 9Posts
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    notgoodatmaths
    Deposit Refund and CCJ
    • #1
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:20 PM
    Deposit Refund and CCJ 18th Jun 17 at 9:20 PM
    Hi guys

    My previous lettings agency hadn't been in touch to return my deposit so I requested to which they replied that I would only get £197 back out of the total £475.00 that I paid as a deposit. I understand that when I left I had to leave my spare washing machine in the living room as they already had one fitted by the landlord. I also left behind a wardrobe, a small dining table and 4 chairs and a single metal bed frame taken apart. I also couldn't return the keys to them. The reason I had to leave all that and couldn't return the keys is very personal. Lets just say police had to get involved for concerns of my safety so I just had to leave as soon as I could. I couldn't return to the flat to get everything removed. Apart from this the place just needed to be vacuum cleaned.
    I disputed the amount to which the agency didn't respond. They started ignoring my emails so I took the matter to the court because at that stage they didn't even gave me any information about my deposit as to where it was held under what reference number. I had to ask the court to enter judgement. And now the lettings agency have got back to me with the reference number etc and asking me to stop the proceedings asap still insisting that the deductions are reasonable. I have requested to see the invoice as they do not have a good record of getting the place cleaned before a tenant moves in. Only I know as I had to clean that place especially the fridge which was in appalling state. The lettings agency have sent me an email with the breakdown of costs and is asking me to drop the CCJ case against them while they "try to find" copy of invoice. I do not think the deductions are reasonable. Just wanted to ask for your opinion what should I do next? And also how much do you think it would cost to get cleaners in to just do a basic clean and remove the items and also to replace keys etc?

    Replacement lock and key Mailbox - £30.00
    Replacement lock to front door and key - £45.00
    Replacement front door key - £15.00
    Replacement main entrance door key - £15.00
    Cleaning contribution - £35.00
    Carpet Clean - £58.00
    Items and rubbish removal - £80.00


    Another alarming thing I noticed that they used a different post code to mine to protect the deposit and are saying it is just a typo. They put my name and first line of address correct but my email address and the post code wrong and that's why DPS couldn't find me on their records. I think something fishy going on there.

    Thanks a bunch
Page 1
    • anselld
    • By anselld 18th Jun 17, 9:48 PM
    • 5,157 Posts
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    anselld
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:48 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:48 PM
    The cost look reasonable assuming the cleaning charge can be supported by check in and check out inventories. Your personal problems are not the concern of the Agent/Landlord, in fact if you have not fully vacated and returned keys I am surprised they are not charging further rent.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 18th Jun 17, 9:55 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    notgoodatmaths
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:55 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:55 PM
    I did give them written notice a month ago that I would be vacating the property. But I just had to move out in a rush as I didn't think things would get that bad that I wouldn't be able to remove the items by myself. I would still insist to see a copy of the invoice. I am sure companies keep financial records safe so it would be very funny if they come back and say that they couldn't find the file or that particular invoice.

    PS. There was no written/photographic proof of inventory checklist.
    • sheff6107
    • By sheff6107 18th Jun 17, 10:11 PM
    • 364 Posts
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    sheff6107
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:11 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:11 PM
    They have to serve a defence. See what their full defence is. An email with some information might be helpful but you're on the small claims track now.
    • anselld
    • By anselld 18th Jun 17, 10:15 PM
    • 5,157 Posts
    • 4,701 Thanks
    anselld
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:15 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:15 PM
    I did give them written notice a month ago that I would be vacating the property. But I just had to move out in a rush as I didn't think things would get that bad that I wouldn't be able to remove the items by myself. I would still insist to see a copy of the invoice. I am sure companies keep financial records safe so it would be very funny if they come back and say that they couldn't find the file or that particular invoice.

    PS. There was no written/photographic proof of inventory checklist.
    Originally posted by notgoodatmaths
    They are not required to provide an invoice. In fact they are not required to carry out any work. They are simply required to prove that you have not returned the property as you received it and that the charge to compensate for that is reasonable. An invoice usually helps but it is not mandatory.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 18th Jun 17, 10:20 PM
    • 2,463 Posts
    • 3,141 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:20 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:20 PM
    Why you had to leave in a hurry is nothing to do with the lettings agency. All they are interested in is how you left the property and you admit that you did leave items in it that had to be disposed of as well as not cleaning it. You also didn't return the keys. Your personal reasons are none of the letting agency's business. Their business is acting for the landord and the landlord got his house back without the keys full of items that needed removing and with the house needing to be cleaned out before it could be let to someone else. You have to pay for this. You left it like this. The landlord does not have to lose money for your "personal reasons." It seems as if you are expecting special treatment because of your personal reasons otherwise you would not have mentioned them? The landlord does not have to give you special treatment for your personal reasons these are for you to sort out.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 18th Jun 17, 10:26 PM
    • 39,630 Posts
    • 45,130 Thanks
    G_M
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:26 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:26 PM

    Replacement lock and key Mailbox - £30.00
    Replacement lock to front door and key - £45.00
    Replacement front door key - £15.00
    Replacement main entrance door key - £15.00
    Cleaning contribution - £35.00
    Carpet Clean - £58.00
    Items and rubbish removal - £80.00


    Another alarming thing I noticed that they used a different post code to mine to protect the deposit and are saying it is just a typo. They put my name and first line of address correct but my email address and the post code wrong and that's why DPS couldn't find me on their records. I think something fishy going on there.

    Thanks a bunch
    Originally posted by notgoodatmaths
    The key and lock costs all seem reasonable. Since you did not return the keys, you are responsible for these costs.

    The cleaning cost is negligible. Since you've admitted the property needed vacuuming, £35 is not unreasonable for a cleaner to attend, spend half an hour, and leave.

    Carpet clean is a reasonable cost - whether it's justified I can't comment.

    The removal costs are fair.

    As for your personal problems which caused some of this, well whilst we can sympathise (though without knowing the details), they are really irrelevant to the deposit question.

    Personally I think you'd do best to write this off and move on.

    As for the Small Claims case, I suspect you will lose so far as most of those costs are concerned, though you may win on the carpet cleaning perhaps, but of course it depends on the defence they enter.

    Keep your fingers crossed, though, that they don't enter a counter-claim eg for rent since you did not end the tenancy by returning the keys, and possibly for inadequate notice. This could end up costing you more.
    Last edited by G_M; 18-06-2017 at 10:30 PM.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 18th Jun 17, 11:35 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    notgoodatmaths
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 17, 11:35 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 17, 11:35 PM
    Thanks for your replies so far. I mentioned my personal reason just in case people think I am an irresponsible tenant which I am not by the behaviour depicted while leaving the property but sometimes circumstances are not in your favour.
    The previous tenant had left loads of stuff behind, coffee machine, dinner sets, wall clock, broken ironing board and a broken rowing machine in the storage cupboard. I requested for the items to be removed but they were not removed. At last I just left it as I managed to live without using that storage cupboard for myself. That's why I am not sure if they had actually removed the items this time. And what stopped them from doing that for me when I first moved in. It seems to me that they are all about saving costs by not actually spending the money to clean the place but putting it in their bank accounts.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 19th Jun 17, 12:40 AM
    • 284 Posts
    • 149 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    • #9
    • 19th Jun 17, 12:40 AM
    • #9
    • 19th Jun 17, 12:40 AM
    You must know the story of the chap who goes into a pet shop, with a long list :
    4 rats, 100 spiders, 50 cockroaches and 30 slugs
    When the owner asks why he wants so many items, he explains that he is moving out of his rented flat and has to leave it as he found it.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 19th Jun 17, 1:22 AM
    • 2,463 Posts
    • 3,141 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    Thanks for your replies so far. I mentioned my personal reason just in case people think I am an irresponsible tenant which I am not by the behaviour depicted while leaving the property but sometimes circumstances are not in your favour.
    The previous tenant had left loads of stuff behind, coffee machine, dinner sets, wall clock, broken ironing board and a broken rowing machine in the storage cupboard. I requested for the items to be removed but they were not removed. At last I just left it as I managed to live without using that storage cupboard for myself. That's why I am not sure if they had actually removed the items this time. And what stopped them from doing that for me when I first moved in. It seems to me that they are all about saving costs by not actually spending the money to clean the place but putting it in their bank accounts.
    Originally posted by notgoodatmaths
    From the point of view of your landlord you are an irresponsible tenant. Your personal problems are not anything to do with your landlord it is none of their business how you run your life or what life throws at you. The lettings agent and the landlord are not interested in your personal life or your problems what they are interested in is how you have left the property. Taking out your personal problems you left the property without giving notice. You left items in the property, you didn't clean it and you didn't hand the keys back. This is what you are being charged for. You seem to think that the landlord/letting agent has to take into account your personal problems. Your personal problems are nothing to do with them.

    What the previous tenants did or not do is also none of your business and what the landlord does or not do with the items you left behind is also none of your business.

    You are liable for what you didn't do when you left the property. The charges that they have come up with are reasonable. You don't get special treatment because of your circumstances.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 19th Jun 17, 1:38 AM
    • 39,630 Posts
    • 45,130 Thanks
    G_M
    and to clarify the point you make about whether the LL/agent actually removed your items or not, actually cleaned or not, and whether they have invoices:

    They do not have to do any of those things: they are charging you for the value of the consequences of your actions.

    As an analogy: Say I'm driving my car, and someone crashes into the back of me, causing a dent. It is their fault. I'm entitled to claim a fair amount for the damage, so I get 2 quotes from garages, say £100 and £120. The other driver pays me £100 (he does not want to lose his no claims bonus, or pay the excess, so ignores insurance).

    Do I have to show him an actual receipt for the repair? No.
    Do I have to get the dent repaired? No.

    I can spend the £100 on a slap-up night out, and drive around in a dented car.

    The £100 is compensation for now having a dented car - it is NOT dependant on me deciding to actually have the car repaired.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 19th Jun 17, 9:42 AM
    • 5,528 Posts
    • 7,246 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    What stage are you up to with the county court proceedings? If you have actually got a CCJ (a JUDGEMENT) then you are entitled to be paid the amount the Judge determined.

    If you have simply issued proceedings then they are entitled to file a defence, and can either admit they owe you full sum, admit they owe you part of it but dispute the rest,or dispute the whole amount.

    If you and they come to an agreement then it would be reasonable for you to withdraw your claim.

    As others have said, the amounts that they are charging you are not inherently unreasonable, for the work that needs doing.

    The only one open to dispute would be the carpet clean, if your say that the carpet did not require cleaning. But the others are reasonable.

    (Hopefully, you won't ever be in a similar situation, but if you were, you could ask the police to go with you to remove personal belonging and return keys)

    Whether or not the landlords *actually * pay someone to remove the items or clean the carpet is up to them.

    dpending on the timescales and how many times you had requested information from them about where your deposit was being held, it might be reasonable for you to offer a compromise whereby you agree to accept their deductions on the basis that they agree to repay the balance of the deposit plus the court issue fee you have paid, on the basis that you would not have had to issue an application if they had provided the deposit details in a timely way.

    Obviously you are free to wait to see whether they file any defence, and to seek judgment in default if they don't, and you may get lucky if they are disorganised and fail to do so within the necessary time limits, but the deductions they are making are reasonable and the amounts are not excessive, so if they do file a defence disputing the amount due to you I think they are likely to succeed
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:35 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    notgoodatmaths
    You must know the story of the chap who goes into a pet shop, with a long list :
    4 rats, 100 spiders, 50 cockroaches and 30 slugs
    When the owner asks why he wants so many items, he explains that he is moving out of his rented flat and has to leave it as he found it.
    Originally posted by Geoff1963
    Haha, that made me laugh
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:38 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    notgoodatmaths
    From the point of view of your landlord you are an irresponsible tenant. Your personal problems are not anything to do with your landlord it is none of their business how you run your life or what life throws at you. The lettings agent and the landlord are not interested in your personal life or your problems what they are interested in is how you have left the property. Taking out your personal problems you left the property without giving notice. You left items in the property, you didn't clean it and you didn't hand the keys back. This is what you are being charged for. You seem to think that the landlord/letting agent has to take into account your personal problems. Your personal problems are nothing to do with them.

    What the previous tenants did or not do is also none of your business and what the landlord does or not do with the items you left behind is also none of your business.

    You are liable for what you didn't do when you left the property. The charges that they have come up with are reasonable. You don't get special treatment because of your circumstances.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    I did give them one month's notice. I just couldn't remove the items as the last 2 days in that property were hell. I couldn't even sleep due to the personal situation which I was facing. Anyway thanks for your input.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:42 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    notgoodatmaths
    and to clarify the point you make about whether the LL/agent actually removed your items or not, actually cleaned or not, and whether they have invoices:

    They do not have to do any of those things: they are charging you for the value of the consequences of your actions.

    As an analogy: Say I'm driving my car, and someone crashes into the back of me, causing a dent. It is their fault. I'm entitled to claim a fair amount for the damage, so I get 2 quotes from garages, say £100 and £120. The other driver pays me £100 (he does not want to lose his no claims bonus, or pay the excess, so ignores insurance).

    Do I have to show him an actual receipt for the repair? No.
    Do I have to get the dent repaired? No.

    I can spend the £100 on a slap-up night out, and drive around in a dented car.

    The £100 is compensation for now having a dented car - it is NOT dependant on me deciding to actually have the car repaired.
    Originally posted by G_M
    Thanks for clarifying. It actually makes sense now. I thought lettings agencies and landlords would respect the new tenant's right to a clean and tidy place so they would actually spend the money that they have acquired from the previous tenant's deposit to make that happen but reading comments on here have realised that's not how the world works. I am just too naive
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 19th Jun 17, 3:47 PM
    • 15,502 Posts
    • 38,857 Thanks
    FBaby
    It does work like this sometimes, or other times, they might rent as is but lowering the future rent, or not increasing to rental market.

    Different LL will do different things, but all have one thing in common, they don't have to justify what they do with the money.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:48 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    notgoodatmaths
    What stage are you up to with the county court proceedings? If you have actually got a CCJ (a JUDGEMENT) then you are entitled to be paid the amount the Judge determined.

    If you have simply issued proceedings then they are entitled to file a defence, and can either admit they owe you full sum, admit they owe you part of it but dispute the rest,or dispute the whole amount.

    If you and they come to an agreement then it would be reasonable for you to withdraw your claim.

    As others have said, the amounts that they are charging you are not inherently unreasonable, for the work that needs doing.

    The only one open to dispute would be the carpet clean, if your say that the carpet did not require cleaning. But the others are reasonable.

    (Hopefully, you won't ever be in a similar situation, but if you were, you could ask the police to go with you to remove personal belonging and return keys)

    Whether or not the landlords *actually * pay someone to remove the items or clean the carpet is up to them.

    dpending on the timescales and how many times you had requested information from them about where your deposit was being held, it might be reasonable for you to offer a compromise whereby you agree to accept their deductions on the basis that they agree to repay the balance of the deposit plus the court issue fee you have paid, on the basis that you would not have had to issue an application if they had provided the deposit details in a timely way.

    Obviously you are free to wait to see whether they file any defence, and to seek judgment in default if they don't, and you may get lucky if they are disorganised and fail to do so within the necessary time limits, but the deductions they are making are reasonable and the amounts are not excessive, so if they do file a defence disputing the amount due to you I think they are likely to succeed
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    Thank you for not judging me and actually giving some advice. It is at the CCJ stage. They were trying to fob me off regarding the deposit issue. I had been chasing them for 4 months and had no luck. DPS couldn't find me on their records so couldn't help me. So I had to go to the court. I have emailed them back that I would accept the £197 plus £58 as the carpets didn't really need a deep clean just a vacuum clean. And they have agreed to that. I am waiting to get the money in my bank then I will cancel the CCJ.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:52 PM
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    notgoodatmaths
    From the point of view of your landlord you are an irresponsible tenant. Your personal problems are not anything to do with your landlord it is none of their business how you run your life or what life throws at you. The lettings agent and the landlord are not interested in your personal life or your problems what they are interested in is how you have left the property. Taking out your personal problems you left the property without giving notice. You left items in the property, you didn't clean it and you didn't hand the keys back. This is what you are being charged for. You seem to think that the landlord/letting agent has to take into account your personal problems. Your personal problems are nothing to do with them.

    What the previous tenants did or not do is also none of your business and what the landlord does or not do with the items you left behind is also none of your business.

    You are liable for what you didn't do when you left the property. The charges that they have come up with are reasonable. You don't get special treatment because of your circumstances.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    I am not asking for any special treatment based on my circumstances. I mentioned it just to give you guys a background before everyone started asking me why I did this or that.
    • notgoodatmaths
    • By notgoodatmaths 19th Jun 17, 3:57 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    notgoodatmaths
    I am already suffering from depression and just needed some advice. I believed the rules of the forum were to offer advice and to not judge but it seemed like I was being judged by the tone of some comments. Anyway thanks for putting your input. I have emailed the lettings agency back and I will accept £197 plus £58.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 19th Jun 17, 4:22 PM
    • 2,463 Posts
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    Cakeguts
    I am already suffering from depression and just needed some advice. I believed the rules of the forum were to offer advice and to not judge but it seemed like I was being judged by the tone of some comments. Anyway thanks for putting your input. I have emailed the lettings agency back and I will accept £197 plus £58.
    Originally posted by notgoodatmaths
    You have done it again. You have mentioned a medical illness. The point about this is that people can only give you advice based on what you say you have done when you left this property. The fact that some of them may have written something that you don't like doesn't mean that they are judging you.

    I am sorry you have got depression. I know that it isn't at all pleasant. However this still has nothing to do with your question about the return of your deposit.
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