Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 18th Jun 17, 7:00 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 0Thanks
    caminch1993
    County court claim for parking please help
    • #1
    • 18th Jun 17, 7:00 PM
    County court claim for parking please help 18th Jun 17 at 7:00 PM
    I wondered if any one can help me....

    i was renting a property that was patrolled by UKPC.
    i received numerous parking tickets, including ones on bank holidays such as new years day... I received tickets at 9,10,11pm which i didnt believe i had to pay! Now 18 months later i have received
    a claim form from SCS law for an amount that totals £1090.
    As i was about to pay this, my brother advised me of this thread and suggested posting a thread to see if anybody can help me or let me know how to go about either defending myself, or just paying the charge..... I have drafted an email in which i used one of you're templates......

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    UK PARKING CONTROLS
    V
    CAMERON INCH

    I, CAMERON INCH, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:


    1. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge

    ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iv. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    v. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vii. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.

    2. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper.

    3. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    4. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.
    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (ii) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice.
    (iii) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (iv) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    (v) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
    d) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    (ii) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    5. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed UKPC do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    6. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    7. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 12 June 2017

    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Signed
    Cameron Inch
    Date
    17/06/2017
Page 1
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 18th Jun 17, 7:01 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 17, 7:01 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 17, 7:01 PM
    May i add i have recently moved property so never have received any NTK's.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 18th Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    • 2,026 Posts
    • 5,769 Thanks
    bargepole
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    That defence has been copied from a template somewhere, and is mostly irrelevant.

    Forget about keeper liability, POFA 2012, penalties or signage. This is a residential case, and it would be obvious to a blind badger in a bag that you were the driver.

    The key here is your Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement. Does that say that you have to display a parking permit, and pay penalties to a third party for non-display of same?

    If it doesn't, then you rely on that contract to enjoy quiet enjoyment of the property, and use of the common areas, which presumably includes the parking spaces.

    This is known as 'primacy of contract', and cannot be amended by the PPC signs, whatever they say, unless you have agreed to a variation of the tenancy.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 27. Lost 9.
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 18th Jun 17, 8:38 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:38 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:38 PM
    Okay,

    there is no mention of paying third parties or displaying permits in the contract,

    would you or could you advise me on drafting an email to send back?

    Also when doing my AOS am i intending to contest jurisdiction?

    many thanks
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 18th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    The Car parking section in the contract says as follows:
    To park private vehicles only at the property in the space,garage or driveway allocated to the property

    not to park any vehicle at the property which is not in a road worthy condition, taxed and insured.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 17, 9:24 PM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:24 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 17, 9:24 PM
    Okay,

    there is no mention of paying third parties or displaying permits in the contract,

    would you or could you advise me on drafting an email to send back?

    Also when doing my AOS am i intending to contest jurisdiction?
    Originally posted by caminch1993
    You won't be sending an email back, except for your email to the CCBC in Northampton, attaching your PDF defence once it's finished. No rushing it, as long as you acknowledge service (AOS) using MCOL, you buy more time.

    As for your Q about jurisdiction = NO. This and other questions about procedure and what not to include in a defence, are written by bargepole, in posts I have linked to post #2 (all about court stage) of 'NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST'. It's all there, all you need to know.

    So go and read that first, only post #2 of it, click on the links and examples. Make sure you have done the AOS (there's an idiot's guide to that, with pictures) because that buys you another fortnight to work on a winning defence.

    I agree with bargepole about not alleging you were not the driver v UKPC, partly because they probably did send Notice to Keeper letters a month after each PCN, and their wording is 'OK', but mainly because it's all about your primacy of contract.

    Also read this, once you have done the AOS:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    and read the threads by:

    Daniel San

    hairray

    infernouk

    ...all of which deal robustly with the question of a resident's rights over a poxy parking scammer. Your eyes will be opened - as will this, about UKPC and who they are:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35253759

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=63597

    that's the calibre of ex-clampers your Managing Agents are letting loose near residents' cars. So get angry about the Managing Agents' role in all this...whilst defending a claim you should NEVER have had to face, how bloody dare they do this to residents?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-06-2017 at 3:08 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 21st Jun 17, 12:07 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    • #7
    • 21st Jun 17, 12:07 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Jun 17, 12:07 PM
    Thanks for the links! Good information! No not from Surrey unfortunately!!
    So I have been to the road and taken photos of the signage, to which I believe is contradicting and confusing.. could this be my defence?

    One sign states " No unauthorised parking between 7am- 11am" I don't have the PCN"s anymore but I'm pretty certain these tickets were issued outside of these times, so I would like to see the pcns.

    The second sign states " Private Road
    Parking for Resisdents of "** *************" Only (to which I was!! )

    The third sign states " no parking on double yellow lines"

    Thanks for your help in advance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jun 17, 3:08 PM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 21st Jun 17, 3:08 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Jun 17, 3:08 PM
    Yes it helps your case. Any ambiguity in contractual agreements must be interpreted in the way that most favours the consumer. This is trite law.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 21st Jun 17, 3:17 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    • #9
    • 21st Jun 17, 3:17 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Jun 17, 3:17 PM
    Ok that's good
    Do you know any links where I could get a similar draft letter that is similar situation to this? Or any points that I should mention in my defence letter?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Jun 17, 4:00 PM
    • 13,980 Posts
    • 21,943 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ok that's good
    Do you know any links where I could get a similar draft letter that is similar situation to this? Or any points that I should mention in my defence letter?
    Originally posted by caminch1993
    Have you read the links provided by CM? And especially the threads of Daniel San, hairray and infernouk?

    There must be something there to help get you underway.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 21st Jun 17, 9:01 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    OK i cant find the threads of them guys?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jun 17, 9:02 PM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So we are asking you to look for them - no links. I gave you their usernames 3 days ago. 'Members list' is at the top.

    You need to learn how to use the forum, look at the tabs along the top (just above the thread, NOT right at the top of the entire page), find those members and click on their names.

    We ask this deliberately, to help you, as you must be confident with navigating the forum if you are to get best use of it. You can't sit on a thread and ask for links, it doesn't help you research this and use the forum well.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-06-2017 at 9:05 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 21st Jun 17, 9:12 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    thanks, as you can tell im new to this website!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jun 17, 9:16 PM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So are most of the people we help here.

    It's really important that newbies get up to speed with how to search the forum - have a little play with the tabs just above the threads (not at the top of the entire page) and see what you can find by searching for a keyword, or for a member's username. Test them, see where it leads, what it shows you.

    Search one word in the search box (UKPC, for example) & change to 'show posts' and you'll find loads of threads like yours.

    Search the members list too. You then click on their name, to see their threads. You can even look yourself up.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 25th Jun 17, 9:48 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    My new drafted defence..... any tips or advice, additions or removals would be helpful and appreciated!!!


    Between:
    UK PARKING CONTROLS
    V
    CAMERON INCH

    I, CAMERON INCH, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:


    1. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    2. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    (a)The claimant’s notices attempt to make a forbidding offer, (evidence photo 1) which isn’t an offer at all therefore no contract exists. The claimant’s notices clearly state no unauthorised parking therefore there is no offer of a contract for those who are supposedly unauthorised and therefore no contract.

    (b) The second of the claimants notices states (evidence photo 2) “ Private Road Parking for residents of St. Michaels Park ONLY”. This notice indicates to me that I as a resident of St Michaels Park, am authorised to park here. The presence of the claimant on the land will have supposedly been to prevent parking by uninvited persons, for the benefit of the actual leaseholders (MYSELF). Instead a predatory operation has been carried out on the very people whose interests the claimant was there to uphold. I have attached a copy of my lease for your interest.
    How Is anybody meant to fully understand what these contradictory signs actually mean.I note that any ambiguity in contractual agreements must be interpreted in the way that favours the consumer.

    (c) NO ENTRANCE SIGNS


    3. The Assured Shorthold Tenancy (Attached as evidence)
    (a) There is no agreement within this assured shorthold tenancy contract that states I have to display a parking permit, pay for a ticket or pay penalties to a third party for non display. Primacy of contract cannot be amended by PPC signs unless I have agreed to a variation of the tenancy, which clearly I have not.

    (b)Point 7(a)(i) of the tenancy agreement states: “The Tenant may hold and enjoy the Property during the Tenancy without any unlawful interference by the Landlord or any person acting on his behalf.” The aggressive business approach and unwarranted threat of court and debt collectors that has been issued to me from UKPC has caused me much distress and discomfort within this tenancy.

    4. I, The Defendant therefore believe that these charges are not valid and my personal details have been obtained unlawfully by the claimant in this case and I ask that the court does not assist the claimant to benefit from a wrongdoing.

    5. The Claimant has brought a claim that discloses no cause of action. The defendant has the reasonable belief that the claimant is abusing the court process by using the threat of action and the threat of damaging the Defendants credit rating to alarm the Defendant into making a payment that is not owed.

    6. It is believed UKPC do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.


    7. The defendant therefore asks for the court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    (a) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge

    ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vii. 5. The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs. In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant. 


    b) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.
    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).


    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 25th Jun 17, 9:49 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    Point 2(C) i need to elaborate on.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jun 17, 12:27 AM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    UK PARKING CONTROLS
    should be

    UK PARKING CONTROL Ltd

    And you don't attach any evidence at this stage - you mention it all but actually file it later, nearer to a few weeks before the hearing date.

    3. The Assured Shorthold Tenancy (Attached as evidence)
    Point 2(C) i need to elaborate on.
    Just add that private land where a BPA member operates, is subject to the Code of Practice which sets out signage requirements, including entrance signs to tell a driver that a location is private land and is managed/enforced by a BPA member.

    The main thing you are missing, is mention of Jopson v Home Guard, PACE v Noor and Link v Parkinson, as easily found in other defences here, by searching for any one of those unusual keywords. You have mentioned your primacy of contract and tenancy agreement (good) but I would also adduce some case law and other county court decisions that you will later put forward as part of your evidence exhibits.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caminch1993
    • By caminch1993 20th Jul 17, 8:27 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caminch1993
    ive had a response from SCS Law that states, the claimant is proceeding with the claim.. this now has me worried..shall i settle with them?
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 20th Jul 17, 9:17 PM
    • 931 Posts
    • 579 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    Any ambiguity in contractual agreements must be interpreted in the way that most favours the consumer. This is trite law.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jul 17, 9:22 PM
    • 48,809 Posts
    • 62,312 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OMG, just because they sent their template acknowledgement, you are spooked? What did you think they would say ''oh sorry, we've cancelled it, and here's a cheap box of chocs from a local petrol station as an apology, Mr Inch''?

    Forget it, crack on, perhaps you need to re-read the NEWBIES thread. Why did you defend...think about it...not to fold the next time you see a template letter. Man up (please) this is worth fighting.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-07-2017 at 9:25 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,232Posts Today

8,095Users online

Martin's Twitter