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    • Chazpez
    • By Chazpez 17th Jun 17, 5:02 PM
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    Chazpez
    Cash In Hand Employee Termination
    • #1
    • 17th Jun 17, 5:02 PM
    Cash In Hand Employee Termination 17th Jun 17 at 5:02 PM
    Hi, apologies if this is in completely the wrong area, I am struggling to find some clear info on the internet and hope you guys can help.

    So my mother works a couple of shifts a week at her local pub. It is paid cash in hand.
    Last week some money went missing from the business over two shifts on a Friday and a Sunday. My mother was working a shift on the Friday, and there is footage of her changing a £20 note from her wages for two £5 and a £10. When she is finished doing this she stands up and looks around to see if there is anybody waiting - the bar itself is in the center of the building and you can walk around in a complete square.

    The owners of the bar have decided this is enough evidence to sack her on the spot "pending investigations" She has been told not to come back into the pub until this is done.

    She didn't do this. She's worked in pubs for over 20 years, and is well known in our town.

    The owners are calling the police, but she doesn't know when. She's worried that somehow she might get charged for this, despite never actually being in the pub on the day of the second theft. If that happens she'll lose her other job (shes a concession manager in a department store) and so, because she's a cash in hand worker, she's not sure what her rights are.

    Thanks everyone!
Page 1
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 17th Jun 17, 5:11 PM
    • 31,345 Posts
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    Browntoa
    • #2
    • 17th Jun 17, 5:11 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Jun 17, 5:11 PM
    cash in hand I suspect none unless she has a contract in place


    why did she not ask either the manager or another staff member to change the note , I agree with the owners that it does look suspicious
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    • Chazpez
    • By Chazpez 17th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    • 2 Posts
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    Chazpez
    • #3
    • 17th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    They weren't there. The staff are generally alone behind the bar. She doesn't even know how much is supposed to have gone missing in total, and she hasn't seen the footage either.
    If they do decide to officially sack her, can she insist on seeing the 'evidence' they have against her? Or, because cash in hand, they technically don't need a reason to fire her?
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 17th Jun 17, 7:10 PM
    • 2,925 Posts
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    Undervalued
    • #4
    • 17th Jun 17, 7:10 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Jun 17, 7:10 PM
    cash in hand I suspect none unless she has a contract in place


    why did she not ask either the manager or another staff member to change the note , I agree with the owners that it does look suspicious
    Originally posted by Browntoa
    No she has exactly the same rights as any other employee providing, if it got that far, she could convince a tribunal she actually worked there.

    Also she may have some additional leverage as most likely the employer has not been accounting for tax and national insurance. If she were to report this to HMRC it would be the employer they would pursue.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 17th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    • 3,604 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #5
    • 17th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    Without knowing more about the situation it difficult to give any advice. I suspect though that she could be sacked for gross misconduct, even if it's accepted that she didn't steal the missing money. Most employers would take an extremely dim view of any staff member putting money from the till into their pocket or purse.
    • Alderbank
    • By Alderbank 17th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 86 Thanks
    Alderbank
    • #6
    • 17th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    Chaz, you have posted this on the Redundancy board.

    Why do you think your mother has been made redundant?
    • CKhalvashi
    • By CKhalvashi 18th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    • 8,559 Posts
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    CKhalvashi
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    Without knowing more about the situation it difficult to give any advice. I suspect though that she could be sacked for gross misconduct, even if it's accepted that she didn't steal the missing money. Most employers would take an extremely dim view of any staff member putting money from the till into their pocket or purse.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    Completely agree with this.

    Tax implications aside, it would have been much better to ask to swap money than just do it on your own.

    When I was a lot younger, I did a few shifts a week (which was paid PAYE although not enough to pay tax. It was declared to HMRC though) in a business with a lot of cash floating around, and was paid in cash. I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, and either asked the guy on days to back me up in writing, or the director if he was in first, to swap money. It was £50 for a 10 hour shift for over 24's (and within NMW, even though I was under 24), just to give you an idea of how long ago this was.

    A lack of manners may have cost your mother her job, and IMO they're completely correct to be suspicious.
    "I kada sanjamo san, nek bude hiljadu raznih boja" (L. Stamenkovic)

    Call me Remainer or Romaniac, but not Remoaner. It's insulting and I have the right to have my voice heard too.

    I can spell, my iPad can't.
    • Altarf
    • By Altarf 18th Jun 17, 10:12 AM
    • 2,799 Posts
    • 1,660 Thanks
    Altarf
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:12 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 17, 10:12 AM
    She has been told not to come back into the pub until this is done.

    She didn't do this.
    Originally posted by Chazpez
    Well that was a bit silly wasn't it.

    she's not sure what her rights are.
    Originally posted by Chazpez
    In normal circumstances it would be to wait for her employer to complete their investigations and see if she still has a job.

    So my mother works a couple of shifts a week at her local pub. It is paid cash in hand.
    Originally posted by Chazpez
    But since the business (and your mother) has already demonstrated themselves to be dishonest by evading the tax due on the employment, I wouldn't hold your breath.
    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 18th Jun 17, 12:55 PM
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    p00hsticks
    • #9
    • 18th Jun 17, 12:55 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Jun 17, 12:55 PM
    But since the business (and your mother) has already demonstrated themselves to be dishonest by evading the tax due on the employment, I wouldn't hold your breath.
    Originally posted by Altarf
    The fact that the mother is paid cash does not necessarily mean that tax is being evaded
    • Altarf
    • By Altarf 18th Jun 17, 4:15 PM
    • 2,799 Posts
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    Altarf
    The fact that the mother is paid cash does not necessarily mean that tax is being evaded
    Originally posted by p00hsticks
    The OP didn't say their mother was being paid in cash, they said their mother was paid "cash in hand". That phrase is commonly taken to mean that the payment is not official.

    Since the mother has another job, it is hard to see how the "cash in hand" payment is not evading Income Tax and NI.
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 18th Jun 17, 5:11 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    The OP didn't say their mother was being paid in cash, they said their mother was paid "cash in hand". That phrase is commonly taken to mean that the payment is not official.

    Since the mother has another job, it is hard to see how the "cash in hand" payment is not evading Income Tax and NI.
    Originally posted by Altarf
    Paid cash and then pays her own tax and stamp...for all we know she might get a payslip.
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 18th Jun 17, 7:32 PM
    • 12,997 Posts
    • 11,072 Thanks
    paddyrg
    In a cash business like the licensed trade, paying staff in cash is sensible (as long as taxes are all paid, etc). Paying cash into the bank costs money every time, writing cheques costs money every time. Banking £200 cash and writing a cheque would cost (on my tariff, for instance) £1.95 in bank fees (0.65% on cash plus 65p per cheque). I don't think we should read too much into the "cash" thing
    • Wookey
    • By Wookey 21st Jun 17, 3:37 PM
    • 672 Posts
    • 325 Thanks
    Wookey
    I don't see how she is sacked if they are investigating it, suspended would be more likely. If her till/take is/was right before and after her shift finished then the money didn't go missing from there so any camera footage is a moot point. Changing money if you are the only staff member on duty and the till is short of change/notes shouldn't be a problem and if i where her i would argue that point and say that it was done in full view of the camera at the time.
    Norn Iron Club member No 353
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 26th Jun 17, 1:07 PM
    • 5,639 Posts
    • 7,392 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    She has a contract, even if it is not written. It sounds as though she is currently suspended.

    This may be because they suspect her, it may be that they are hoping it will give the real thief confidence so they can catch them in the act.
    How long has she worked there? If it is less than 2 years, they can dismiss her for any reason, or none (except where the reason is discriminatory in relation to a protected characteristic)

    So they would not be under any obligation to show her their evidence or even to tell her whey they are choosing not to keep her on.

    If she has worked there for more than 2 years then they ought to follow a proper disciplinary process,which would typically include telling her what the issue was and giving her the opportunity to respond.

    Her changing her money using the till might well be seen as misconduct even if nothing were stolen. How do you know what the CCTV shows? Are you confident that it is clear enough that it shows she took out, and put in , the same about of money, or does it simply show her opening the till when there was no customer to serve, and taking money out?

    If the police are involved, then if they decide to interview her as a suspect she would be cautioned, would be entitled to have a solicitor or legal rep. (an would be well-advised to get one) and they would have to disclose the evidence they have.

    However, if the situation is that there were two thefts, one at a time your mum was working and one when she wasn't, I would expect suspicion to fall on whoever was there both times.
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