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PCN from ParkingEye after A&E visit to Bath Hospital

Hi,

I took my child to Bath Hospital A&E late on a Monday evening after dark (after about 10pm) and didn't leave until 2.30am.

This week I got a PCN in the post for £80 (or £40 if paid early within 14 days) from ParkingEye!!

When entering the hospital's car park, it was dark and even though driving carefully I didn't see any signs for car parking charges and there were no barriers neither on entry nor exit.

Had I known there was a charge for paying I would have paid at the time but I feel very tricked and angry that it wasn't made clear that there was a charge!

Apparently, they have installed an ANPR system at Bath Hospital nowadays.

I've been reading lots of other people's problems with parking on these kind of forums.

I would like to appeal but I don't live nearby Bath and have difficulties to go back there to take photos for evidence for an appeal to try to prove poor signage - at least at night!

I'm not sure how to best appeal this issue. I feel it's unfair to pay even £40 for this.

I've been reading on different reasons that one can appeal on:
a) Poor signing: Yes, definitely, but I don't have any evidence.

b) No loss of income: The car park was almost empty at the time. Just a handful of cars so I haven't prevented anybody else from using the car park and there has been no loss of income to the hospital either.

c) Would it be possible to appeal on a technicality? The "The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012."?

Is the letter I received in the post a "Notice to keeper" letter, I think so, but I'm not sure...
Dates in letter:
"Date of event":23/05/17
"Date issued": 09/06/2017
"Date": 09/06/2017

Got letter this week (13th-16th/06/17)

The letter was dated on the 17th day after the event. My understanding is that the Notice to keeper must be issued within 14 days of the event by reading other forum posts and on gov.uk's legislation page for "Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012" section 9 (5).

I have also found an email address regarding parking that belongs to Bath Hospital’s.

As they are the "landowner", should I first try to email them requesting them to cancel this charge notice or appeal directly to ParkingEye?

I checked and ParkingEye is a member of the trade body BPA, so I could appeal to POPLA if ParkingEye rejects the appeal....but fear I don't have any photographic evidence to submit so might be rejected.

Any advice or thoughts would be very much appreciated!

Thank you!
«13

Comments

  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084
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    edited 16 June 2017 at 4:50PM
    forget option 2)

    PE put paid to that in the BEAVIS case over 18 months ago

    you need to read the BPA advice in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    use the blue text appeal as KEEPER on the PE website

    and complain to PALS at the hospital, and insist on a cancellation , asap

    quote the NHS guidelines at PALS

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

    if PE refuse to cancel, take it to popla based on post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread

    and yes you can use signage, you can allege it was poor , inadequate and not lit or poorly lit , it is their job to prove compliance , not yours

    if they failed to get the NTK to you within 14 days (by day 15) then yes you can say they also failed POFA2012 as well

    dont read any other advice, just the NEWBIES sticky thread near the top of this forum

    check for the lack of the POFA2012 paragraph , and if its not there add an extra line to the blue text appeal stating that they have failed POFA2012 and the driver will not be identified
  • pogofish
    pogofish Posts: 10,852
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    Start by contacting PALS and asking them to cancel it - Explain your situation clearly.

    If this fails, wait for PE to send you an NTK - and whilst waiting, take time to read-up on the advice in the Newbies Sticky that deals with mounting a POPLA challenge. :)
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084
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    I believe the OP already has an NTK, so must appeal within the requisite 28 days if it isnt cancelled beforehand
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,643
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    Yep the OP says:
    This week I got a PCN in the post for £80
    So they need to appeal now, as keeper, not saying who was driving. Sounds like a non-POFA PCN (known here as a 'golden ticket' = a slam dunk WIN at POPLA stage) so it's vital not to name the driver.

    On the back of the PCN, does it have a section about the Protection of Freedoms Act, or not?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Thanks for all your quick responses!

    I can't see a section "Protection of Freedoms Act" or anything related to that in the text...

    Also, has this NTK (as it seems it is) not been sent too late (17 days) after the event, so it can be appealed for that reason?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,643
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    Yes, you have a golden ticket!

    We will eat our hats if you lose at POPLA, as long as you only choose 'registered keeper' in the drop-down menu when appealing it. They can't hold a keeper liable!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • I’ve emailed PALS and the hospital’s car park email address twice to complain. First I got a standard reply, then second reply to say I need to appeal to ParkingEye first, then they’ll review if that fails.

    Next step is to appeal to ParkingEye asap. I’ve never appealed a PCN before, so I’m bit concerned so I don’t get this wrong.

    I think I’ve used the correct template.

    I removed the text “are in very small print, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.” from the template since the driver didn’t see any signs at all and wouldn’t want to suggest that any signs were seen when it wasn’t the case.

    I’ve also added some extra details – complain about inadequate lighting.

    Is the appeal text below OK to use for an appeal against ParkingEye?

    I would be very grateful for any feedback!


    =======================================================
    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    On arrival to the hospital car park late at night it was already very dark, the lighting of the car park was inadequate and there were no signs displaying any car parking charges visible to the driver. No signs could be seen at all.

    There were also no barriers in the car park, neither on entry nor exit. Furthermore, at the time of entry and exit (i.e. at night time in darkness), there were no visible signs displaying any car parking charges at the entry or exit.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    You have indeed also failed the POFA2012 as you have not notified the keeper within 14 days. The dates are even in your so called ‘PCN’. “Date of Event: 23/05/2017. Date of Issue 09/06/2017”, which is 17 days later. In addition to that, as the keeper, I didn’t receive this so called ‘PCN’ until at least 3 weeks after the event.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,256
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    Get the appeal off to PE and get your rejection and POPLA code so you can get this killed off by POPLA. You will not be paying PE anything as they've fouled up on keeper liability.

    Don't be surprised if you get an interim response asking for the details of the driver - do not respond. A rejection will follow within 35 days from the date of your initial appeal.

    Looks like PALS at Bath Hospital are not going to rise from their desks (gotfa) to help. You can tell them, eventually, that so many other PALS at other hospitals across the country have gone out of their way to offer real help to their patients in getting their parking charges cancelled when faced with the same rubbish from PE.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Edna_Basher
    Edna_Basher Posts: 782
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    You need to keep it simple to avoid the risk of accidentally giving any clues as to the driver's identity - just submit the Blue Template to PE without amendment, choosing the "Registered Keeper" option from PE's drop-down menu.

    PE will reject anyway and once they have given you a POPLA code you can escalate to POPLA as "keeper" to get the PCN cancelled on the basis of non-compliance with POFA = no keeper liability.
  • Half_way
    Half_way Posts: 7,029
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    Get back to PALs and remind them of the patient staff and visitor NHS parking principles
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
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