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  • FIRST POST
    • LemonBerry
    • By LemonBerry 16th Jun 17, 5:44 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 1Thanks
    LemonBerry
    PCN from ParkingEye after A&E visit to Bath Hospital
    • #1
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:44 PM
    PCN from ParkingEye after A&E visit to Bath Hospital 16th Jun 17 at 5:44 PM
    Hi,

    I took my child to Bath Hospital A&E late on a Monday evening after dark (after about 10pm) and didn't leave until 2.30am.

    This week I got a PCN in the post for £80 (or £40 if paid early within 14 days) from ParkingEye!!

    When entering the hospital's car park, it was dark and even though driving carefully I didn't see any signs for car parking charges and there were no barriers neither on entry nor exit.

    Had I known there was a charge for paying I would have paid at the time but I feel very tricked and angry that it wasn't made clear that there was a charge!

    Apparently, they have installed an ANPR system at Bath Hospital nowadays.

    I've been reading lots of other people's problems with parking on these kind of forums.

    I would like to appeal but I don't live nearby Bath and have difficulties to go back there to take photos for evidence for an appeal to try to prove poor signage - at least at night!

    I'm not sure how to best appeal this issue. I feel it's unfair to pay even £40 for this.

    I've been reading on different reasons that one can appeal on:
    a) Poor signing: Yes, definitely, but I don't have any evidence.

    b) No loss of income: The car park was almost empty at the time. Just a handful of cars so I haven't prevented anybody else from using the car park and there has been no loss of income to the hospital either.

    c) Would it be possible to appeal on a technicality? The "The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012."?

    Is the letter I received in the post a "Notice to keeper" letter, I think so, but I'm not sure...
    Dates in letter:
    "Date of event":23/05/17
    "Date issued": 09/06/2017
    "Date": 09/06/2017

    Got letter this week (13th-16th/06/17)

    The letter was dated on the 17th day after the event. My understanding is that the Notice to keeper must be issued within 14 days of the event by reading other forum posts and on gov.uk's legislation page for "Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012" section 9 (5).

    I have also found an email address regarding parking that belongs to Bath Hospital’s.

    As they are the "landowner", should I first try to email them requesting them to cancel this charge notice or appeal directly to ParkingEye?

    I checked and ParkingEye is a member of the trade body BPA, so I could appeal to POPLA if ParkingEye rejects the appeal....but fear I don't have any photographic evidence to submit so might be rejected.

    Any advice or thoughts would be very much appreciated!

    Thank you!
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Jun 17, 5:48 PM
    • 14,437 Posts
    • 18,026 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:48 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:48 PM
    forget option 2)

    PE put paid to that in the BEAVIS case over 18 months ago

    you need to read the BPA advice in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    use the blue text appeal as KEEPER on the PE website

    and complain to PALS at the hospital, and insist on a cancellation , asap

    quote the NHS guidelines at PALS

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

    if PE refuse to cancel, take it to popla based on post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread

    and yes you can use signage, you can allege it was poor , inadequate and not lit or poorly lit , it is their job to prove compliance , not yours

    if they failed to get the NTK to you within 14 days (by day 15) then yes you can say they also failed POFA2012 as well

    dont read any other advice, just the NEWBIES sticky thread near the top of this forum

    check for the lack of the POFA2012 paragraph , and if its not there add an extra line to the blue text appeal stating that they have failed POFA2012 and the driver will not be identified
    Last edited by Redx; 16-06-2017 at 5:50 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 16th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    • 7,127 Posts
    • 7,146 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    Start by contacting PALS and asking them to cancel it - Explain your situation clearly.

    If this fails, wait for PE to send you an NTK - and whilst waiting, take time to read-up on the advice in the Newbies Sticky that deals with mounting a POPLA challenge.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Jun 17, 5:52 PM
    • 14,437 Posts
    • 18,026 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:52 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 5:52 PM
    I believe the OP already has an NTK, so must appeal within the requisite 28 days if it isnt cancelled beforehand
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    • 46,959 Posts
    • 60,316 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    Yep the OP says:
    This week I got a PCN in the post for £80
    So they need to appeal now, as keeper, not saying who was driving. Sounds like a non-POFA PCN (known here as a 'golden ticket' = a slam dunk WIN at POPLA stage) so it's vital not to name the driver.

    On the back of the PCN, does it have a section about the Protection of Freedoms Act, or not?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LemonBerry
    • By LemonBerry 16th Jun 17, 6:25 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    LemonBerry
    • #6
    • 16th Jun 17, 6:25 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Jun 17, 6:25 PM
    Thanks for all your quick responses!

    I can't see a section "Protection of Freedoms Act" or anything related to that in the text...

    Also, has this NTK (as it seems it is) not been sent too late (17 days) after the event, so it can be appealed for that reason?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jun 17, 7:51 PM
    • 46,959 Posts
    • 60,316 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 16th Jun 17, 7:51 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Jun 17, 7:51 PM
    Yes, you have a golden ticket!

    We will eat our hats if you lose at POPLA, as long as you only choose 'registered keeper' in the drop-down menu when appealing it. They can't hold a keeper liable!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LemonBerry
    • By LemonBerry 22nd Jun 17, 3:43 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    LemonBerry
    • #8
    • 22nd Jun 17, 3:43 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Jun 17, 3:43 PM
    I’ve emailed PALS and the hospital’s car park email address twice to complain. First I got a standard reply, then second reply to say I need to appeal to ParkingEye first, then they’ll review if that fails.

    Next step is to appeal to ParkingEye asap. I’ve never appealed a PCN before, so I’m bit concerned so I don’t get this wrong.

    I think I’ve used the correct template.

    I removed the text “are in very small print, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.” from the template since the driver didn’t see any signs at all and wouldn’t want to suggest that any signs were seen when it wasn’t the case.

    I’ve also added some extra details – complain about inadequate lighting.

    Is the appeal text below OK to use for an appeal against ParkingEye?

    I would be very grateful for any feedback!


    ================================================== =====
    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    On arrival to the hospital car park late at night it was already very dark, the lighting of the car park was inadequate and there were no signs displaying any car parking charges visible to the driver. No signs could be seen at all.

    There were also no barriers in the car park, neither on entry nor exit. Furthermore, at the time of entry and exit (i.e. at night time in darkness), there were no visible signs displaying any car parking charges at the entry or exit.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    You have indeed also failed the POFA2012 as you have not notified the keeper within 14 days. The dates are even in your so called ‘PCN’. “Date of Event: 23/05/2017. Date of Issue 09/06/2017”, which is 17 days later. In addition to that, as the keeper, I didn’t receive this so called ‘PCN’ until at least 3 weeks after the event.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jun 17, 3:53 PM
    • 13,145 Posts
    • 20,539 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 22nd Jun 17, 3:53 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Jun 17, 3:53 PM
    Get the appeal off to PE and get your rejection and POPLA code so you can get this killed off by POPLA. You will not be paying PE anything as they've fouled up on keeper liability.

    Don't be surprised if you get an interim response asking for the details of the driver - do not respond. A rejection will follow within 35 days from the date of your initial appeal.

    Looks like PALS at Bath Hospital are not going to rise from their desks (gotfa) to help. You can tell them, eventually, that so many other PALS at other hospitals across the country have gone out of their way to offer real help to their patients in getting their parking charges cancelled when faced with the same rubbish from PE.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 22nd Jun 17, 3:59 PM
    • 528 Posts
    • 1,379 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    You need to keep it simple to avoid the risk of accidentally giving any clues as to the driver's identity - just submit the Blue Template to PE without amendment, choosing the "Registered Keeper" option from PE's drop-down menu.

    PE will reject anyway and once they have given you a POPLA code you can escalate to POPLA as "keeper" to get the PCN cancelled on the basis of non-compliance with POFA = no keeper liability.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 22nd Jun 17, 4:13 PM
    • 3,593 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Half_way
    Get back to PALs and remind them of the patient staff and visitor NHS parking principles
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jun 17, 11:17 PM
    • 46,959 Posts
    • 60,316 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need to keep it simple to avoid the risk of accidentally giving any clues as to the driver's identity - just submit the Blue Template to PE without amendment, choosing the "Registered Keeper" option from PE's drop-down menu.

    PE will reject anyway and once they have given you a POPLA code you can escalate to POPLA as "keeper" to get the PCN cancelled on the basis of non-compliance with POFA = no keeper liability.
    Originally posted by Edna Basher
    I agree: LemonBerry don't over-egg the pudding, don't add to the template. You have a golden ticket so don't wreck that slam-dunk win at POPLA, by writing about what the signs looked like.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 22nd Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    • 3,593 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Half_way
    These are the aforementioned NHS parking principles
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

    If you want to do some digging then you should ask the Hospital these questions
    1:Where does the money gathered from the car parking go?
    2: where does the money gathered from the issuing of parking charge notices issued to registered keepers of vehicles that contravene the parking rules go?


    Chances are that
    1: all regular parking income goes to the NHS trust
    2: parking eye harvest the income from parking charge notices.

    if the above is true, then that puts the Hospital at odds with NHS guidelines, and you should make further complaints.
    You could also ask about patient confidentiality and how ANPR systems can/will breach this to throw a further spanner in the works.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 23rd Jun 17, 12:39 AM
    • 282 Posts
    • 156 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    Sounds like you saved them having to send an ambulance.
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