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  • FIRST POST
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 15th Jun 17, 11:03 PM
    • 42Posts
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    ent_moot
    Buying part of parents house
    • #1
    • 15th Jun 17, 11:03 PM
    Buying part of parents house 15th Jun 17 at 11:03 PM
    Hello,

    My parents are going through a really tough time and are near retirement, so I'm thinking of remortgaging my own home to generate ~120k , use this to fully pay off their mortgage, and therefore own about 1/3 of their home.

    Firstly, is my bank likely to allow me to do this? My details:

    Home value: 450k
    My current outstanding mortgage: 158k
    My salary: ~100k (I have a high salary, but am crazy-frugal because I want to retire at 40)


    Secondly, would there be any fees / taxes I would need to pay to do this?

    Also, another option might be for me to leave my mortgage as it is, for them to leave their mortgage as it is, and then for me to pay their mortgage payments via their account. This might even be better, because they have a fantastic mortgage (1.1%). However, could this be problematic because of capital gains tax or something?


    Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Page 1
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 16th Jun 17, 12:49 AM
    • 9,611 Posts
    • 6,364 Thanks
    kidmugsy
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:49 AM
    • #2
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:49 AM
    Good for you.

    It's not clear to me why your paying off their mortgage must mean your automatically owning a third of their house. You could arrange it so that you've lent them the money, at 0% interest rate, and that your loan is secured by a charge on the house. That would avoid taxation worries.

    If you want to gift them the monthly mortgage repayment that too would be simple. if you wanted to treat that as a series of monthly loans, or annual loans, I suppose you could secure your money by a charge on the house that increases monthly or annually - you'd have to consult a solicitor about that. But then you (and they) are going to consult solicitors anyway, aren't you?
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 16th Jun 17, 12:25 PM
    • 42 Posts
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    ent_moot
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:25 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:25 PM
    >>It's not clear to me why your paying off their mortgage must mean your automatically owning a third of their house.

    I thought that if I just "gifted" them the money to pay off their mortgage, it would be subject to capital gains tax. Is this not the case?


    >>You could arrange it so that you've lent them the money, at 0% interest rate, and that your loan is secured by a charge on the house. That would avoid taxation worries.

    Thanks, this sounds like a good solution too. My parents are keen that it is something fair in both directions. Obviously, if I invested the money or bought something else I would likely make interest/rent, so they would be happy to pay some small rent (or interest if you prefer) so that they don't feel they are being a burden.

    >>But then you (and they) are going to consult solicitors anyway, aren't you?

    I would prefer not to - if it can be done legitimately without wasting money on solicitors bills, this would definitely be my preferred option. As far as I can tell, 95% of solicitors do is administration and pulling together information that I could do myself. Of course, if I see evidence that I am taking a serious risk by not involving a solicitor then I might do so. Aside from what might transpire from a family fall-out (which I think very unlikely), can you think of any serious risks in not consulting a solicitor?
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 16th Jun 17, 12:57 PM
    • 12,011 Posts
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    jimjames
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:57 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jun 17, 12:57 PM
    >>It's not clear to me why your paying off their mortgage must mean your automatically owning a third of their house.

    I thought that if I just "gifted" them the money to pay off their mortgage, it would be subject to capital gains tax. Is this not the case?
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    Can you explain what you mean? Who would be liable to CGT and when?
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • Aretnap
    • By Aretnap 16th Jun 17, 1:00 PM
    • 2,720 Posts
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    Aretnap
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 1:00 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Jun 17, 1:00 PM
    I thought that if I just "gifted" them the money to pay off their mortgage, it would be subject to capital gains tax. Is this not the case?
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    Gifts are not taxable. You could gift them a hundred and twenty grand if you like and the taxman would not care a jot.* What they do with the money would be up to them - whether they pay off the mortgage or go on a round the world cruise it wouldn't result in a tax liability.

    OTOH if you buy yourself a share in their house you might be setting yourself up with CGT tax issues in the future - as their house is not your main residence then AIUI you would be liable for CGT on any increase in value (on your share) between now and whenever it's sold.

    Also any rent they paid you would be taxable income, from your point of view.

    *The one exception would be if you were to die within 7 years of making the gift, in which case it would be counted as part of your own estate for inheritance tax purposes, subject to some annual allowances and taper relief.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 16th Jun 17, 1:03 PM
    • 8,217 Posts
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    teddysmum
    • #6
    • 16th Jun 17, 1:03 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Jun 17, 1:03 PM
    Their paying rent would bring in taxation and legalities involved in being a landlord.


    If you loan the money at 0% as suggested, you wouldn't be losing a lot because interest rates are poor, so they wouldn't be taking much from you, by not paying rent , as they would know that you'd get your money back eventually.


    Would you not need a solicitor to make the charge on the property (protecting your interests) official ?
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 16th Jun 17, 4:31 PM
    • 22,872 Posts
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    xylophone
    • #7
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:31 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:31 PM
    Why not make your parents a regular monthly gift from your income to assist them with their living costs?
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 16th Jun 17, 4:50 PM
    • 9,611 Posts
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    kidmugsy
    • #8
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:50 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Jun 17, 4:50 PM

    >>But then you (and they) are going to consult solicitors anyway, aren't you?

    I would prefer not to - if it can be done legitimately without wasting money on solicitors bills
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    Oh dear me. Do you do all your own plumbing, electrics, gas, and car repairs too?
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 23rd Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ent_moot
    • #9
    • 23rd Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    Oh dear me. Do you do all your own plumbing, electrics, gas, and car repairs too?
    I'm a software engineer by trade, but I do all my own plumbing, electrics and building work. Gas and car repairs, not so much.

    One of the reasons why I've paid most of my mortgage off by age 32 is because I don't waste money on low-skill jobs that I can do myself.

    Like I said, as far as I can tell solicitors are over-paid administrators. There's no science to it and there's very little art to it. That leaves knowledge and admin. Being a computer scientist, I can probably do the admin faster than any solicitor. That just leaves the knowledge bit, which is all available online or in books. Occasionally forums help too, but mostly they just provide bad advice.
    Last edited by ent_moot; 23-06-2017 at 9:27 PM.
    • atush
    • By atush 23rd Jun 17, 9:52 PM
    • 16,241 Posts
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    atush
    One of the reasons why I've paid most of my mortgage off by age 32 is because I don't waste money on low-skill jobs that I can do myself.
    Well done for a good thought- but a better thought might have been to increase pension (which gets tax relief) instead,
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 23rd Jun 17, 10:11 PM
    • 42 Posts
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    ent_moot
    Well done for a good thought- but a better thought might have been to increase pension (which gets tax relief) instead,
    That is definitely a possibility, but not the best option:

    1) As I already mentioned, I plan to retire at 40, at which point my pension will not be accessible (admittedly this may be more like 45 now that I'm paying my parents mortgage too)
    2) By overpaying my mortgage, I save hundreds of thousands of pounds in interest alone, plus I unlock lower mortgage rates saving even more interest
    3) By overpaying my mortgage, I unlock the possibility to take a 2-3 year sabbatical in my 30s if I so choose because I will soon have "free" accommodation.
    4) Owning one's house outright plus having a big chunk of cash savings is massive peace of mind. Having a few hundred thousand tied up in my pension while I'm still in my early 30s because of the tax benefits sounds a little like gambling.

    Oh, and I should also mention that I'm already paying 15% of my salary into my pension.

    Another option is of course investing and in fact I plan to split my disposable income between both my pension and index funds after my mortgage is paid. I accept that, net, I could make/save more cash by not killing my mortgage. However, I firmly believe that the surest way to achieve prosperity and safety for my family (aside from regular prayer) is to pay off my mortgage, and it is the advice I would give to anyone else with a family.
    Last edited by ent_moot; 23-06-2017 at 10:22 PM.
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 24th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
    • 9,945 Posts
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    bigadaj
    That is definitely a possibility, but not the best option:

    1) As I already mentioned, I plan to retire at 40, at which point my pension will not be accessible (admittedly this may be more like 45 now that I'm paying my parents mortgage too)
    2) By overpaying my mortgage, I save hundreds of thousands of pounds in interest alone, plus I unlock lower mortgage rates saving even more interest
    3) By overpaying my mortgage, I unlock the possibility to take a 2-3 year sabbatical in my 30s if I so choose because I will soon have "free" accommodation.
    4) Owning one's house outright plus having a big chunk of cash savings is massive peace of mind. Having a few hundred thousand tied up in my pension while I'm still in my early 30s because of the tax benefits sounds a little like gambling.

    Oh, and I should also mention that I'm already paying 15% of my salary into my pension.

    Another option is of course investing and in fact I plan to split my disposable income between both my pension and index funds after my mortgage is paid. I accept that, net, I could make/save more cash by not killing my mortgage. However, I firmly believe that the surest way to achieve prosperity and safety for my family (aside from regular prayer) is to pay off my mortgage, and it is the advice I would give to anyone else with a family.
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    There's two problems on this thread.

    Firstly the majority of posters are older than you, and so what is logical for them may not be for you, even if the do consider age to an extent.

    Secondly you've drip fed a lot of information that is pertinent.

    As an aside what is your intention for retirement at 40, that's probably less than halfway through your life, have you a secondary career in mind or something else?

    Given you're a high earner then splitting your savings is probably wise, some into pension, filling isa plus mortgage overpayments. Given your age then potentially vcts may come in useful, higher risk but your money is only locked away for five years, dividends a tax free and 30% tax relief.

    The decision for mortgage over payments is probably fine for you, though I wouldn't degree to the extent you are doing, but wouldn't be good advice for most people's situation.

    With respect to the original question it sounds like simply paying the mortgage is simplest and easiest at the low rate they have, will they exceed the inheritance tax threshold?
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 24th Jun 17, 12:34 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ent_moot
    The other problem with this thread is that I tend to be abrasive, opinionated. Sorry.

    With respect to the original question it sounds like simply paying the mortgage is simplest and easiest at the low rate they have, will they exceed the inheritance tax threshold?
    Currently the value of their home is well below the threshold. I was thinking of paying their mortgage under a zero service charge zero interest loan, which I will "hand craft" rather than involve a solicitor. So, it's essentially a gift but if push comes to shove over inheritance thresholds etc. then it's a loan. Do you think this will work?
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 24th Jun 17, 2:55 PM
    • 9,611 Posts
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    kidmugsy
    Secondly you've drip fed a lot of information that is pertinent.
    Originally posted by bigadaj
    Be fair! Have you ever encountered a software engineer who releases info in a timely and intelligent fashion?


    Remember, this chap assures us that he doesn't need any legal advice but was happy to assume that his giving his parents a gift would automatically result in his owning part of their property.
    Last edited by kidmugsy; 24-06-2017 at 2:58 PM.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 24th Jun 17, 3:50 PM
    • 6,691 Posts
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    bowlhead99
    Currently the value of their home is well below the threshold. I was thinking of paying their mortgage under a zero service charge zero interest loan, which I will "hand craft" rather than involve a solicitor. So, it's essentially a gift but if push comes to shove over inheritance thresholds etc. then it's a loan. Do you think this will work?
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    Certainly paying their monthly mortgage payments for them as they fall due (at only 1.1%) is better than borrowing a large chunk of money on your existing property (at greater than 1.1%) to pay off their debt. Your family as a whole will get a better overall financial result if you pay the bare minimum amounts that need to be paid on their 1.1% mortgage giving you more money to clear your own mortgage at greater than 1.1% or make investments (whether inside or outside a pension) at a long term rate of much greater than 1.1%.

    You can agree and document a loan facility with your parents that charges them zero percent interest on the money they borrowed each month. You can't secure it as a first charge on their house while they still have a mortgage in place, because their existing mortgage lender already has that security and as discussed there is no point paying him off. But you could register a second charge i.e. subordinated to the rights of the mortgage lender. Having a charge on the house ranks you ahead of other unsecured creditors if/when your parents are pursued for other debts and those creditors want your parents to sell their property to pay them off.

    Your parents mortgage will presumably not always be at 1.1% but will likely track changes in base rates or SVRs. And if it is a fixed term deal, that deal will end. So at some future point it is likely that they will need to remortgage to maintain a good deal. At that point, when shopping around for the best rates, they will have to declare their financial position in terms of income, debts to banks and credit card companies and other secured and unsecured borrowings from people such as yourself. In order not to scare off a prospective mortgage lender, you would not want any part of your debt to be repayable monthly or on demand , but only at some later point after the mortgage is cleared (such as on sale of their property). So, a registered second charge on the house using appropriate language in the loan documentation would make sense.

    Others have mentioned pension as a sensible vehicle for part of your spare money. Obviously it does not help with the cash you'll need in retirement between your giving up work in early to mid 40s and being able to access a personal pension in your late 50s. However, it would certainly help with your cashflow needs starting from your late 50s for potentially four to five decades after that.

    15% of your salary over four decades of a career would put you well on the way to a healthy pension. However, you're not planning to contribute 15% over four decades of a career, only for two decades because you want to retire early - and once you stop having salary/business earnings you will only be able to put a nominal amount into a pension each year. So, even with a decent salary making those 15%s quite respectable, don't underestimate the value of taking significant tax relief on extra amounts you put in. Especially as your salary rises over the coming years and you stand to have your annual personal allowance taper away giving you an effective 60% tax rate - equating to 150% 'bonus' on any funds contributed to pension that year within the relevant boundaries.

    The other positive thing about a pension is that it is outside your estate for inheritance tax purposes. You mentioned your parents' assets being well under the IHT threshold at the moment. That situation would also be helped in the future due to rule changes where one can give a part of their residence to a child (but not to a parent) on top of the regular IHT allowance. However, have you considered the IHT applicable to *your own* estate?

    At the moment you have getting on for £300k of assets and being frugal you will hope to accumulate more at a fast pace. And the money given to your parents by way of loan will not reduce your estate because it's still yours, albeit you don't necessarily expect to get it back. It's worth considering the money that will get 'lost' to the treasury when you get hit by a bus and IHT is due on what you have in your estate.

    For example if you have £300k equity in your home now and spend the next few years paying off your mortgage and funding your parents' property by way of loan, before focussing on investments and extra pension, you might find yourself with (say) a £500k home mortgage free, £30k parental loan, £10k investments, £10k extra pension: £550k. When you get hit by a bus, your parents as executors find your estate to be £225k over the £325k IHT threshold. They need to pay 40% of tax to HMRC on that excess which is a £90k tax bill. They would get £440k left over, a nice windfall - but less value than the home for example, so no opportunity to give the home away intact to anybody, let it out for income, etc.

    Alternatively if you had invested the money wisely in investments and pensions instead of paying down your cheap home mortgage they might find you owning £370k of home equity, £30k parental loan, £125k investments £125k pension for a total of £650k ; the extra hundred grand over my unspecified timescale coming from high rate tax relief on the pension and the growth on the pension and investments well in excess of the mortgage interest rate saved. But the pension is outside the estate for tax purposes so total estate for IHT is only £525k not £650k.

    This produces an IHT bill of £80k on the £200k over the £325k threshold. After the bill is settled out of the liquidated investments, the beneficiaries are left with £650k-£80k = £570k. Enough to give flexibility for a sibling or friend or lover to be given your property intact, if your parents don't want to keep it or sell it for cash. Overall there's almost 25% more money coming out of the estate, made possible by a) income tax relief on pension investment; b) greater gains on the pensions and investments compared to overpaying mortgage; c) lower IHT bill due to the pension assets sitting outside the estate.

    I realise planning your own estate's IHT is well off topic for 'how do I buy my parents house or help them with their mortgage' but once you start looking at potential outcomes when considering aggregate family wealth, it has to be a consideration.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 24-06-2017 at 3:56 PM.
    • bob bank spanker
    • By bob bank spanker 24th Jun 17, 4:02 PM
    • 483 Posts
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    bob bank spanker
    I would prefer not to - if it can be done legitimately without wasting money on solicitors bills, this would definitely be my preferred option. As far as I can tell, 95% of solicitors do is administration and pulling together information that I could do myself. Of course, if I see evidence that I am taking a serious risk by not involving a solicitor then I might do so. Aside from what might transpire from a family fall-out (which I think very unlikely), can you think of any serious risks in not consulting a solicitor?
    Originally posted by ent_moot
    This is total insanity. For a start, you assumed you would own the property, and that there were CGT implications from your gift. This is billy basic stuff. There are more complex matters that others on this forum will not be able to help with.

    Most of all, you do not seem to understand that you do not pay solicitors for administration. They don't even do that, they will generally pass that to a junior. You pay them for advice, and it sounds like you definitely need it.
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 28th Jun 17, 8:44 AM
    • 42 Posts
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    ent_moot
    This is total insanity. For a start, you assumed you would own the property, and that there were CGT implications from your gift. This is billy basic stuff. There are more complex matters that others on this forum will not be able to help with.

    Most of all, you do not seem to understand that you do not pay solicitors for administration. They don't even do that, they will generally pass that to a junior. You pay them for advice, and it sounds like you definitely need it.
    Solicitors are not especially incentivised to give advice that is aligned with one's long term future plans. There is no way I am going to waste money on advice from a solicitor when I can obtain a much broader picture myself, free of charge.

    Yes, what I said originally was nonsense. Why do you think I came and asked on a forum? Precisely because I know how ignorant I am and wanted a rough steer in the right direction. One of the things that the best Software Engineers in the world learn very quickly is that, no matter how much you are are paid and no matter who they are, it is always worth asking stupid questions.

    Thanks to the likes bowlhead99 and the other useful people on this thread, I now have a much better picture. I'm yet to see any significant evidence, at least not in this thread, that going anywhere near a solicitor would be a sensible idea. It may have worked for you, and I respect your choice and I apologise for the indirect insult I've applied by stating my opinion of solicitors, however what has always worked for me throughout my life is figuring things out for myself. And that includes asking stupid questions and not getting offended when people attempt to exploit that apparent vulnerability.

    If you make fun of people for asking stupid questions, you are basically just making the world a worse place. So I would just like to ask you politely not to do it.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 28th Jun 17, 9:16 AM
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    Malthusian
    An Internet forum or asking men in the pub will indeed give you a broader picture, if by that you mean they will give you a variety of opinions, some of which will be the right answer to the wrong question and others plain wrong.

    A forum such as this will usually provide good answers to the questions you ask. The trouble is that we can't answer the questions you aren't asking.

    This is not a job to DIY unless you are happy to gift your parents £120,000 and wave goodbye to the lot if something goes wrong. Not paying a few hundred quid to protect your interests when you are dealing with £120,000 of borrowed money is being penny wise and pound foolish in the extreme.
    • ent_moot
    • By ent_moot 28th Jun 17, 3:59 PM
    • 42 Posts
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    ent_moot
    Well no, actually I can do exactly what bowlhead99 has suggested (see below) to provide a reasonable degree of security for myself. A few hours of research will provide me with a template that I can follow. I will have a better understanding of the terms of the loan than I would via a solicitor because I will have researched it myself, and my parents get the benefit of it being explained to them by me rather than a solicitor.

    Everyone wins apart from the solicitor who is misses out on a few hundred pounds, but I'm sure he/she won't go hungry.

    You can agree and document a loan facility with your parents that charges them zero percent interest on the money they borrowed each month. You can't secure it as a first charge on their house while they still have a mortgage in place, because their existing mortgage lender already has that security and as discussed there is no point paying him off. But you could register a second charge i.e. subordinated to the rights of the mortgage lender. Having a charge on the house ranks you ahead of other unsecured creditors if/when your parents are pursued for other debts and those creditors want your parents to sell their property to pay them off.
    An Internet forum or asking men in the pub will indeed give you a broader picture, if by that you mean they will give you a variety of opinions, some of which will be the right answer to the wrong question and others plain wrong.
    Well obviously, which is why I would apply my own discretion and then follow it up with my own research into more formal documentation and reputed sources of knowledge.

    Ghosh, I really thought that this stuff would be the bread and butter of "money saving experts".

    If you were planning to build your own Android application for a very simple task, I would wholeheartedly recommend that you do not contract out an Android Developer at £600 per day to build it for you. If you're any good at mathematics, logic and learning new things, I would recommend that you 1) ask on any developer forum where a good place to start is. 2) follow an online tutorial. 3) go back to a forum and ask stupid questions if you get stuck.

    You may take an order of magnitude longer, but you will save thousands of pounds and will have learned some really cool new things.
    • Fatenbread
    • By Fatenbread 29th Jun 17, 8:30 AM
    • 87 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    Fatenbread
    A gift would not be taxable under CGT. It may have an IHT (Inheritance Tax) implication were you to die within 7 years.

    The key here is whether you just want to help your parents out (with the expectation, but not the need, for whatever you give them to come back to you as an inheritance eventually), or whether you want to retain control over the money that you help them out with.

    If you just want to help them out, then paying their existing mortgage monthly gives you the ability to help without taking on significant additional personal debt, losing their preferential mortgage rate, changing anyone's tax position or incurring any legal fees. However you have no legal claim on getting the mortgage payments you make back.

    If you want to relieve them of their mortgage while retaining your interest in whether you have invested in your house, then in your position my approach would be determined on where the house is.

    If the house somewhere that you have a reasonable expectation of growing in value over the next couple of decades, then I would want to buy a share of their property to hold onto. You could buy the portion of the house covered by the mortgage from your parents (registering the property as being held by you and your parents as tenants in common with explicit percentages of ownership), and they could repay the mortgage with the proceeds. This takes it out of their estate and into yours and you get any capital growth in your share. The downside is that you would pay CGT on any growth up to the point of sale, which your parents would avoid as the house is their primary residence.

    If the house was somewhere that I expected would not experience capital growth, or may reduce in value in the coming years, then I would lend them the money, but register a charge against the property.

    Either way I would want a conveyancer to review the contracts and make the relevant filings at the Land Registry. It would be a couple of hundred quid to navigate the administration of a system you know nothing about. While it is not desperately complex, why would you risk a losing a 6 figure investment, or paying a unnecessary 5 figure tax bill for the sake of a £200 bill?

    Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer or a tax specialist, but I have co-invested in my in-laws' primary residence in the past. I have a similar aversion to paying for advice that I don't think I need (and have been electrocuted more frequently than average as a result...), but I don't think conveyancing fits this description.
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