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  • FIRST POST
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 14th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    • 11Posts
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    jcooperengineer
    ParkingEye (postal) PCN received 2 and a half months after date of event
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    ParkingEye (postal) PCN received 2 and a half months after date of event 14th Jun 17 at 5:19 PM
    Hi all,

    I'm new here and I've just spent the past 30 minutes reading through your forums (which are great btw) unfortunately I couldn't find anything on my particular situation.

    So it is now 14th June 2017 and the two remaining PCN letters from Parking Eye (for the final 2 working days I parked there) have just arrived?!

    Why have these just arrived and more importantly am I obliged to pay these? I have read in some of your threads that if it is 28 days after the event I do not have to pay (the dates of events are 13/03/17 and 14/03/17). I also read in your threads that it depends on the date that Parking Eye requested my name and address from the DVLA. Well if I already received the first 4 postal PCNs in late March, then surely they had my name and address on file for the final 2 PCNs that I received today? Can anyone confirm if they contact the DVLA for each individual PCN or whether they would have contacted DVLA once and only once and therefore I can appeal these PCNs?

    I hope this makes sense and apologies if this question has already been asked (if it has, please kindly post a link to the information I need)

    Many thanks - J
    Last edited by jcooperengineer; 27-06-2017 at 5:18 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 17, 5:25 PM
    • 16,540 Posts
    • 20,699 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 17, 5:25 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 17, 5:25 PM
    they have to contact the DVLA for each and every pcn they wish to issue , they cannot just use it once and then issue 5 or 6 separate pcn,s

    PE had 6 years to send an invoice and try to enforce it , BUT under POFA2012 they had 14 days due to ANPR cameras being used , so they failed that target miserably for these last two

    so I assume these pcn,s have the POFA paragraph blanked out or missing ?

    there is no advice here about it being invalid after 28 days , 72 months (6 years) is the statute on unpaid "debts" , using the MCOL system

    you should appeal these 2 separately using the blue text appeal for each one , as keeper

    the only time you are "obliged" to pay is if a judge says so, in court
    Last edited by Redx; 14-06-2017 at 5:34 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 14th Jun 17, 5:56 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 17, 5:56 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 17, 5:56 PM
    Thanks for your response the thread I was referring to is thread number showthread.php?t=2326549 (I can't post links as I am a new member)

    Some people on that thread suggest that I am not liable to pay if it is 28 days or longer since the date of the event?

    All six PCNs I received (4 in March, 2 in April) look identical the only difference being the dates and slightly different images from an ANPR.

    There is no reference to POFA on these but there are paragraphs referring to the reason for the PCN, the appeals and complaint procedure (with reference to POPLA) and finally how to contact the DVLA for further information and release of information requests.

    Thanks in advance! J
    Last edited by jcooperengineer; 27-06-2017 at 5:26 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 14th Jun 17, 6:08 PM
    • 7,648 Posts
    • 7,908 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:08 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:08 PM
    they can only hold the KEEPER liable if they are relying on the protection of freedom act (POFa) without this they can only go after the driver , so DONT tell emm who was driving
    Last edited by pappa golf; 27-06-2017 at 5:46 PM.
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 14th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:19 PM
    Can someone please confirm if I can appeal on the grounds that these PCNs were sent nearly 2 months later than the date of parking?
    Last edited by jcooperengineer; 27-06-2017 at 5:26 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 17, 6:48 PM
    • 16,540 Posts
    • 20,699 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:48 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:48 PM
    1) you assume wrongly

    2) but yes, because as keeper they failed to inform you within 14 days under POFA2012

    the original invoices were paid by the keeper on behalf of the driver , they had no idea who the driver was and still dont (they cannot assume , they have to prove it)

    ANPR monitors the VRM on the vehicle , not the driver, so they send out 6 NTK,S to the keeper (not the driver)and they failed with these last two

    use the blue text template and appeal as keeper online

    add an extra paragraph that they have failed POFA2012 so as keeper you are not liable and they should chase the driver who will not be named
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 14th Jun 17, 11:52 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 17, 11:52 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 17, 11:52 PM
    Thanks Redx - for the detailed breakdown, that makes complete sense now!
    I will be sure to appeal as you suggested, where can I find this blue text template you refer to?

    Thanks again pal J
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    In the NEWBIES thread, at the top of the forum in capitals begging people to read it first, instead of hitting 'new thread' without reading the forum.

    Please don't copy the template appeal here and ask 'is it this one...'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 15th Jun 17, 12:46 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 17, 12:46 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 17, 12:46 AM
    Thanks a lot - sorry to be a pain

    Also, could you please direct me to a template to appeal council PENALTY charge notices? I have one of those from Brighton & Hove council too, for not writing my reg on the visitors permit I had been given... Or is this a case of pay up because it's council and not private?

    Cheers - J
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 15th Jun 17, 8:20 AM
    • 2,580 Posts
    • 3,839 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Thanks a lot - sorry to be a pain

    Also, could you please direct me to a template to appeal council PENALTY charge notices? I have one of those from Brighton & Hove council too, for not writing my reg on the visitors permit I had been given... Or is this a case of pay up because it's council and not private?

    Cheers - J
    Originally posted by jcooperengineer
    Your best bet is to take this over to pepipoo they are the experts on council tickets, this forum is mainly for private parking tickets.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 17, 9:53 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Or is this a case of pay up because it's council and not private?
    Lol, no. Most Council ones can be beaten on appeal.

    And B&H ones are easy to appeal, I have done a couple of appeals for colleagues and Albion fans this year. Pepipoo forum teaches you how, just takes some homework on your part. Go and register (not a hotmail email address):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

    And don't post without pics of BOTH SIDES of the PCN. Yes, the back as well...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 27th Jun 17, 10:36 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    Perfect time to submit your POPLA appeal vs ParkingEye
    Evening all,

    When would you say is the best time to send your online appeal to POPLA? On the final day before the deadline (I believe this is the 28th working day but correct me if i'm wrong) or does it make little difference if I were to send the appeals tonight on the 5th working day?

    Cheers - J
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 27th Jun 17, 10:46 PM
    • 33,252 Posts
    • 17,191 Thanks
    Quentin
    .....When would you say is the best time to send your online appeal to POPLA? On the final day before the deadline (I believe this is the 28th working day but correct me if i'm wrong) or does it make little difference if I were to send the appeals tonight on the 5th working day......
    Originally posted by jcooperengineer
    Where have you read about 28 working days to send in your appeal?? Not here!


    Your belief is wrong! Its 28 days
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 28th Jun 17, 12:57 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    Ok thanks for clearing that up. Is it to my advantage to wait until the 27th or 28th day then?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jun 17, 1:10 AM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No point at all in delaying it if you are ready and we've checked it - have we?

    But POPLA codes last for just over 30 days and certainly until Sunday, if the 28th day is today.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 28th Jun 17, 1:46 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    No point at all in delaying it if you are ready and we've checked it - have we?

    But POPLA codes last for just over 30 days and certainly until Sunday, if the 28th day is today.
    Hi Coupon-mad

    My POPLA statement is a (very slightly) amended version of your dropbox document. I have removed parts which aren't relevant as my parking charge notice is ANPR for overstaying the max 3 hours (i.e. no parking meters / machines on the site)

    I would be most grateful if you are able to give it a once-over before I submit it to POPLA, where / whom shall I post it to?

    Many thanks - J
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 28th Jun 17, 7:39 AM
    • 33,252 Posts
    • 17,191 Thanks
    Quentin
    Post it here. (No identifiable details)
    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 28th Jun 17, 11:27 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    Here is my POPLA appeal which I will be submitting online as a document (and not answering the questions asked by POPLA - as recommended by Coupon-mad)

    You will notice I have changed / taken some parts out of his original as they are not applicable however I've generally kept most of his points in. I've also had to remove the links here because I am a new user to the forum.

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice sent to myself as registered keeper of the vehicle in question. I was NOT the driver.
    I contend that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    1) This Notice to Keeper (NTK) is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used.

    Under schedule 4, paragraph 4 of the POFA, an operator can only establish the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of a vehicle if certain conditions must be met as stated in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 & 12. ParkingEye have failed to fulfil the conditions which state that the keeper must be served with a compliant NTK in accordance with paragraph 9, which stipulates a mandatory timeline and wording:-

    ’’The notice must be given by— (a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
    (b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.’’
    The applicable section here is (b) because the NTK was delivered by post. Furthermore, paragraph 9(5) states: ’’The relevant period…is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended’’

    The NTK sent to myself as Registered Keeper arrived some 3 months after the alleged event. Even if they had posted it on the same day that they describe as the ‘Date Issued’ (which ParkingEye never do in any case at all because they use a third party batch-mail system, Whistl or iMail or similar, which adds up to a week before a letter is posted) it would be impossible for the notice to have been actually delivered and deemed ‘served’ or given, within the 'relevant period' as required under paragraph 9(4)(b).
    This means that ParkingEye have failed to act in time for keeper liability to apply. Furthermore, it is clear that ParkingEye know this because they have used the alternative version of their template ‘Parking Charge Notice’ – the one with no reference to ‘keeper liability’ or the POFA.
    So, this is a charge that could only be potentially enforced against a known driver and there is no evidence of who that individual was - and that person was not me.

    2) The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge.

    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay, not by POPLA, nor the operator, nor even in court. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a POFA-compliant NTK.
    The burden of proof rests with the Operator, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot – they will fail to show I can be liable because the driver was not me.

    The vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:-
    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''

    No lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from a keeper, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA. This exact finding was made in a very similar case with the same style NTK in 6061796103 v ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''
    3) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.

    I do not believe that this operator has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. I contend that they merely hold an agreement to maintain signs and to issue 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I put the operator to strict proof otherwise because it cannot be assumed that any agent on site has any more than a bare licence.
    I require an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the landowner contract (including the User Manual which forms a vital part of that contract). This is required so that I may see the definition of services provided by each party to the agreement, as well as any exclusions (e.g. exempt vehicles, users, days or times) as well as defined grace periods; the land boundary and the areas or specific bays enforced; the various contraventions and confirmation of the agreed ‘charge’ which may or may not be £100.
    Regarding Section 7.3 of the BPA Code of Practice, I require evidence of full compliance:
    “The written authorisation must also set out:
    a) The definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
    b) Any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
    c) Any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
    d) Who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
    e) The definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''


    4) Breach of the BPA Code of Practice on ANPR.
    It is submitted that this charge was not properly given because it breaches the BPA Code of Practice regarding ANPR which requires checks to be made to ensure that a charge is ‘appropriate’ before issuing a PCN.
    Further, the signs fail to inform a driver what the ANPR data will be used for. The driver had no idea that secret camera data would later be used against them to bind a charge they knew nothing about and did not agree to. They thought the cameras were there for security, due to the lack of any other information (a black icon showing a camera communicates nothing).
    Failure to tell a driver how the data will be used is an ICO breach AND a ‘misleading omission’ of a material fact – prohibited by consumer law.

    5) The signs are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces
    The signs were contradictory and crowded with different terms, so this is not an example of ‘plain intelligible language’, contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

    68 Requirement for transparency (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent. (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.
    It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case where the terms were concise and far clearer. The Supreme Court were keen to point out within hours of their decision that it related to that car park and those signs and facts only so it certainly does not supersede any other appeal/defence about a different car park.

    As evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:-


    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. However, if you…want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:-


    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''. ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the parking terms should have been simpler and effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear, concise and prominent in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'.
    I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective when parked. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 17, 12:17 AM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Should all win, if PE were daft enough to delay sending the PCNs for 3 months!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jcooperengineer
    • By jcooperengineer 29th Jun 17, 3:21 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    jcooperengineer
    Should all win, if PE were daft enough to delay sending the PCNs for 3 months!
    Thanks Coupon-mad! Are you happy for me to submit this to POPLA then? Do I need to give the exact dates I received the PCNs or will POPLA have that information?
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