Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • T3RRY
    • By T3RRY 13th Jun 17, 8:29 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 0Thanks
    T3RRY
    Vehicle Access (Dropped Kerb) Application refused
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:29 PM
    Vehicle Access (Dropped Kerb) Application refused 13th Jun 17 at 8:29 PM
    Hi Everybody

    I was wondering if I could get some help and advice.

    We recently brought a house with no vehicle cross over (driveway) in place. The house is at the far end of the close where the road widens to become a turning circle and the house opposite us has a drive. The front garden has gravel in place for the driveway.

    We sent an application to The County Conucil's Highway department who are responsible for dropping kerbs. Our application was rejected without them attending the site. they stated we don't meet the requirements. When I requested for the measurements that were obtained for the application to be rejected they failed to proved these and stated they will send someone out "again" to get the measurements.

    Days later the Network Coordinator himself came round to look at the house took measurements and later responded by email that our driveway was 50cm short of the required length of 5m. I requested that they look into it again as properties in the area including the one opposite us has a drive that was created not long ago (1.5yrs ago).

    The district council had already consented to the drive being created as this is on an unclassified road.

    Can someone please advise me what is the next best course of action.
    I wish to appeal this decision but having the application looked at by the head of the department feels like I have reached the ceiling

    Our front garden has more than enough room to accommodate the length of our car. There is no verge, sidewalk or pavement infant of the house, just the Kerbs. I see no health and safety issues as the property opposite us and in the next close park there cars without any issues.

    Looking forward to hearing your replies.
Page 1
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 13th Jun 17, 8:33 PM
    • 10,570 Posts
    • 7,080 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:33 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:33 PM
    If your garden area [to be converted] falls short of the guidelines your council give, you have little, if any course for appeal. There is a similar thread I will try and link to.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5663740

    Our front garden has more than enough room to accommodate the length of our car.
    Originally posted by T3RRY
    It is not about your car, it's about any car and the council's minimum requirements.
    Last edited by theonlywayisup; 13-06-2017 at 8:36 PM.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 13th Jun 17, 8:37 PM
    • 803 Posts
    • 837 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:37 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:37 PM
    Yours is a similar situation to another thread today it would seem. You can only really appeal and see what happens. The length of your car is irrelevant because you may change your car in future and should you move, the new resident could park a van or something even larger there. That's why councils stick to the measurements and don't consider the dimensions of a resident's vehicle.

    It would seem that your neighbours' dropped kerbs were installed under an older set of rules. Seems unfair, but that's the way it is.
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 13th Jun 17, 8:40 PM
    • 1,339 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    parking_question_chap
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:40 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:40 PM
    Is there no route to appeal to a non council body?

    Looking online, it seems that some councils only stipulate 4.5m

    That said, irrespective of the length required, councils need to be consistent towards all residents.

    Length of care not relevant, future owner might buy bigger car.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 13th Jun 17, 8:47 PM
    • 803 Posts
    • 837 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:47 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:47 PM
    councils need to be consistent towards all residents.
    Originally posted by parking_question_chap
    Only from the point of view of the regulations in place at the time. Historical regulations don't have to stand forever and any precedent set at a neighbour's property become irrelevant when new rules are issued.
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 13th Jun 17, 8:50 PM
    • 1,339 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    parking_question_chap
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:50 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:50 PM
    Only from the point of view of the regulations in place at the time.
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck
    Obviously.
    • T3RRY
    • By T3RRY 13th Jun 17, 9:10 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    T3RRY
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:10 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:10 PM
    The thing is the property opposite just had theirs done a 1.5yrs ago. the council stated they had the policy in place for 5yrs and has not changed. A precedent has already been set our property is the only one of its type without parking.
    • the_r_sole
    • By the_r_sole 13th Jun 17, 9:39 PM
    • 2,293 Posts
    • 1,144 Thanks
    the_r_sole
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:39 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:39 PM
    Too small is too small, have you measured all the neighbours parking bays?
    The onus isn't really on the roads department to accept your non compliant space, the onus is on you to provide some kind of solid reasoning why your space doesn't have to meet policy, using examples of other spaces is only useful if you know all the details of them and the policies they were constructed under
    • T3RRY
    • By T3RRY 13th Jun 17, 10:21 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    T3RRY
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:21 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:21 PM
    Too small is too small, have you measured all the neighbours parking bays?
    The onus isn't really on the roads department to accept your non compliant space, the onus is on you to provide some kind of solid reasoning why your space doesn't have to meet policy, using examples of other spaces is only useful if you know all the details of them and the policies they were constructed under
    Originally posted by the_r_sole
    Too small is too small, I agree. however our space is not too small. At 4.5m is adequate for a normal family car as demonstrated by the properties around the area. Our neighbours drive too measures at 4.5m too. the property in the next close that behind our neighbours (Neighbours relative) measures too at 4.5m (wall to kerb). I would assume the others too measure that much and no where near the 5m.

    The thing is, We are the only property of its type (in 4 closes) that does not have a dropped kerb. The neighbour had theres approved without any issue. We have a good reason to apply for a dropped kerb (but again, don't we all have a reason)
    • the_r_sole
    • By the_r_sole 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • 2,293 Posts
    • 1,144 Thanks
    the_r_sole
    Too small is too small, I agree. however our space is not too small. At 4.5m is adequate for a normal family car as demonstrated by the properties around the area. Our neighbours drive too measures at 4.5m too. the property in the next close that behind our neighbours (Neighbours relative) measures too at 4.5m (wall to kerb). I would assume the others too measure that much and no where near the 5m.

    The thing is, We are the only property of its type (in 4 closes) that does not have a dropped kerb. The neighbour had theres approved without any issue. We have a good reason to apply for a dropped kerb (but again, don't we all have a reason)
    Originally posted by T3RRY
    If the current requirement is 5m and you don't have 5m you have to justify a departure from their policy for your specific situation, are you the end of a row, or closer to a junction that your neighbours etc?
    It's nothing to do with the practicalities for these people, it's down to their regulations. And some officers can be particularly pedantic and awkward when applying them.
    Have you seen your neighbours application/reports/decision, have you asked them how they justified it, who they spoke to at the council etc? Maybe it's been identified as a problem and you're the unlucky one who doesn't get it.
    All you can really do is put the strongest case possible for appeal but it's very difficult to get leeway on minimum dimensions
    • T3RRY
    • By T3RRY 14th Jun 17, 3:59 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    T3RRY
    If the current requirement is 5m and you don't have 5m you have to justify a departure from their policy for your specific situation, are you the end of a row, or closer to a junction that your neighbours etc?
    Originally posted by the_r_sole
    We are at the end of the row of house, 50m from a junction and no sidewalk in front of the property. We did justify the reason which is a valid one as we need access to the property for a disabled member we care for.

    Have you seen your neighbours application/reports/decision, have you asked them how they justified it, who they spoke to at the council etc? Maybe it's been identified as a problem and you're the unlucky one who doesn't get it.
    Originally posted by the_r_sole
    Not seen the decision, just had a chat about it and they said it was not a problem for them and their relative in the next close. No information was given about who they spoke to at the council.

    All you can really do is put the strongest case possible for appeal but it's very difficult to get leeway on minimum dimensions
    Originally posted by the_r_sole
    I have requested assistance from the local councillor and popped into the council today to request a face to face meeting with someone so I can put my case across rather than emails that can be misconstrued.
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 16th Jun 17, 12:57 PM
    • 11,279 Posts
    • 6,267 Thanks
    Strider590
    I'm afraid when it comes to stuff like this, it's down to who you are, how fancy your house is and who you know on the council.

    Round here there are some large houses in the middle of nowhere, that get road marking to stop people parking on the road next to them and keep clear boxes at the end of their driveway. There's even one where the council have raised the entire road to meet their new driveway, they closed the damn road for 6 weeks and caused complete havoc! It's on a 60 limit and the raised part is violent enough to send a car airborn.......

    Many years ago a local councillor got a mini-roundabout built at the end of his road, so that he could use it to nip into the stationary traffic during rush hour.

    I really REALLY hate this sort of corruption......
    Last edited by Strider590; 16-06-2017 at 1:00 PM.
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • Furts
    • By Furts 16th Jun 17, 6:10 PM
    • 3,305 Posts
    • 2,084 Thanks
    Furts
    I suggest OP is on a lost cause. Fundamentals of building are car spaces were establish at 8 feet, or 2400, decades back. Everybody knows car parking spaces are too small because cars are far bigger than they were in the 1960s. Hence all the new build drives I have ever been involved in have been built at a minimum of 5000. My home comes out at around 5500, which ties in with this. Good practice would be car parking spaces at 5300.

    For OP to argue that 4500 is acceptable when this flies in the face of any wisdom, and fails to meet their local authority design guides seems crazy.

    But best of luck!
    • patman99
    • By patman99 16th Jun 17, 11:25 PM
    • 7,911 Posts
    • 9,330 Thanks
    patman99
    Depending on the kerb height, the op could always just drive over it into their front garden.

    The road my freind lives in had no dropped kerbs, but every house had removed their front fence and was parking off-road by bumping up the kerbs.

    After 25 years, the Council turned-up to re-lay the pavement and put drop kerbs in across every 'driveway' without even questioning whether the hoeowners were entitled to them or not.
    Never Knowingly Understood.

    Member #1 of £1,000 challenge - £244/ £1000 (that's 24.4%)

    3-6 month EF £213/£3600 (that's 4 days worth)

    Do you/your spouse earn less than £197 p/w ?. Fill-in Form R85 and get your Bank interest Tax free.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 17th Jun 17, 8:47 AM
    • 1,366 Posts
    • 1,354 Thanks
    EachPenny
    It's nothing to do with the practicalities for these people, it's down to their regulations. And some officers can be particularly pedantic and awkward when applying them.
    Originally posted by the_r_sole
    'These people' are 'pedantic and awkward' because -
    That said, irrespective of the length required, councils need to be consistent towards all residents.
    Originally posted by parking_question_chap
    You cannot be consistent if you make the rules up as you go. Officers making the rules up also creates scope for the kind of corruption allegations Strider590 makes - if an officer turns a blind eye to the OP's missing 500mm then people may turn it into an anecdote about how council officers take bungs to approve things, regardless of whether any brown envelopes were involved.

    Depending on the kerb height, the op could always just drive over it into their front garden.
    Originally posted by patman99
    You'd probably have got away with this 20 years ago, but it is unlikely the OP will do so now, especially if you have made an application for a dropped kerb and had it refused. Councils will inspect sites which had dropped kerb applications refused, and if the driveway has been constructed anyway the normal response is for the Council to install a nice row of concrete bollards stopping use of the drive. There wouldn't be much point in having a policy on dropped kerbs and driveways, and charging people for doing the work, if residents can simply bypass the rule by bumping up the kerb.

    T3RRY, your best bet is to work with your local councillor to try to get exemption from the rules in your specific case. The usual reason for the minimum driveway depth is to avoid having vehicles overhanging the footway which (blind) people could walk into. If there is no footway then this is irrelevant. A cul de sac location means the flow of traffic and pedestrians is not a significant factor. The fact other people got a dropped kerb with shorter driveways doesn't set a precedent - it could just be a mistake - and I wouldn't make too much of it in your discussions with the council (people don't like being reminded of their mistakes)

    If you cannot get the council to budge then the next thing to consider is a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman. They look into cases of maladministration which is not the same as appealing against a council decision. You'd need to look closely at the council's rules and decision making process (after you've gone as far as you can with the council) and see then if there is anything which looks like maladministration.

    Have you consider applying for a 'disabled' parking space to be marked on the road instead?
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • Jonesya
    • By Jonesya 17th Jun 17, 9:09 AM
    • 1,258 Posts
    • 785 Thanks
    Jonesya
    If the length (4.5m) is the problem, could you get to 5m by having a diagonal drive way across the front?
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 17th Jun 17, 9:20 AM
    • 1,366 Posts
    • 1,354 Thanks
    EachPenny
    If the length (4.5m) is the problem, could you get to 5m by having a diagonal drive way across the front?
    Originally posted by Jonesya
    It is worth checking, but usually the policy will say the measurement is taken perpendicular to the kerbline - this is because it is safer to enter/exit the driveway at a 90 degree angle. Many people point out their front garden is big enough to fit a car parked parallel to the road, but get refused a dropped kerb because this kind of parking is considered unsafe.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 17th Jun 17, 10:50 AM
    • 11,279 Posts
    • 6,267 Thanks
    Strider590
    Phone up, ask them who you need to play Golf with.
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • Cash-Cows
    • By Cash-Cows 17th Jun 17, 11:03 AM
    • 151 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    Cash-Cows
    4.5m is too small especially against a wall. The reality is a gap will have to be provided between the wall and car reducing the space still further. I've seen this type of thing many times including a demo of how a car fits. You couldn't get a piece of paper between the wall and car mind. Quite often people will just bump up the kerb but this usually comes to head not from the council enforcing against an illegal access but when a buyer for the house won't proceed until its authorised.

    The location of this will make it difficult because it's in a turning head. An overhang of the site could compromise its use by delivery vehicles.

    Could the OP confirm if there is section of public highway between the boundary of the property and the carriageway edge. If there is could you confirm the depth of this. Normally if there is no footway there would be a highway verge of somewhere between 0.5m and 1.2m. This is important. Don't guess ownership of the verge. It may look like yours but could be highway.
    • Cash-Cows
    • By Cash-Cows 17th Jun 17, 11:07 AM
    • 151 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    Cash-Cows
    I'm afraid when it comes to stuff like this, it's down to who you are, how fancy your house is and who you know on the council.

    Round here there are some large houses in the middle of nowhere, that get road marking to stop people parking on the road next to them and keep clear boxes at the end of their driveway. There's even one where the council have raised the entire road to meet their new driveway, they closed the damn road for 6 weeks and caused complete havoc! It's on a 60 limit and the raised part is violent enough to send a car airborn.......

    Many years ago a local councillor got a mini-roundabout built at the end of his road, so that he could use it to nip into the stationary traffic during rush hour.

    I really REALLY hate this sort of corruption......
    Originally posted by Strider590
    Councils take corruption very seriously. In fact my local council has a specific committee that deals with complaints against councillors. If you've got evidence of corruption I suggest you report it after all it's your money.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,461Posts Today

8,402Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Byebye! I'm about to stop work & twitter, to instead spend glorious time with Mrs & mini MSE. Wishing u a lovely summer. See u in 10 days.

  • WARNING Did you start Uni in or after 2012? The interest's rising to 6.1%; yet it doesnt work like you think. See https://t.co/IQ8f0Vyetu RT

  • RT @JanaBeee: @MartinSLewis Boris is the anomaly (coffee), the others are versions of normal (beer). Lots of same candidates = vote share d?

  • Follow Martin