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  • FIRST POST
    • ALex
    • By ALex 13th Jun 17, 7:16 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 0Thanks
    ALex
    AST Eviction due to pregnancy
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:16 PM
    AST Eviction due to pregnancy 13th Jun 17 at 7:16 PM
    Hello all,

    My wife and I are currently 7 months into a 12 month AST ending early November 2017. We are expecting our first baby who is due in September and, as our landlord lives in an adjacent property on the same grounds, unsurprisingly this has not gone unnoticed.

    The landlord spoke to my wife today as she got in from work and indicated that she would like us to leave before the baby arrives.

    Our tenancy agreement does not have a specific "no children" clause but does have the following relevant points:
    "4. Use of the Property
    4.1 Not to assign, or sublet, part with possession of the Property, or let any other person live at the Property.
    4.2 To use the Property as a single private dwelling,
    and not to use it or any part of it for any other purpose, nor to allow anyone else to do so.
    4.3 The Property shall be used for the occupation of ALex and ALex's Wife."
    Later sections refer to "...the Tenant, his children, visitors, contractors or pets...".

    We have a good relationship with our Landlord and I do not believe there is any malice intended. However if push comes to shove I want to understand whether there would be any grounds for an early eviction against our will before the end of the 12 month fixed period.

    I should also mention that the contract is subject to a six month break clause but I believe that it can no longer be executed as the relevant date has now passed. The clause is as follows:
    "S4. Break Clauses
    S4.1 The Landlord and Tenant shall have the right by giving not less than sixty day's advance written notice to the Landlord's Agent to terminate this tenancy on 10 May 2017 and on this date the Tenant shall yield up the premises in accordance with the provisions hereof with vacant possession and the Tenancy shall absolutely determine but without prejudice to any antecedent rights or claims of either party. The Landlord reserves the right having given reasonable notice and at reasonable times to show the Property to applicants or purchasers or valuers during the two months' notice period or during the last two months prior to termination of the tenancy."
    Note, we have always intended to move out at the end of the AST anyway, as the property is too cold over the winter months for a young child, so we are already keeping an eye on the local rental market.

    Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

    ALex
Page 1
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 13th Jun 17, 7:27 PM
    • 4,285 Posts
    • 3,614 Thanks
    00ec25
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:27 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:27 PM
    you have a fixed term tenancy until "early Nov 2017"

    the break clause has expired

    short of mutual agreement, neither you nor the LL can unilaterally end anything until the contract naturally ends itself in Nov. (Allowing of course for the fact you carry on paying the rent and the LL therefore cannot seek a court order under non payment grounds)
    Last edited by 00ec25; 13-06-2017 at 7:30 PM.
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 13th Jun 17, 7:35 PM
    • 2,997 Posts
    • 5,187 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:35 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:35 PM
    He can't make you leave early but if you were planning on leaving in November anyway it may be worth seeing if he'll cover any of your costs if you leave early on a mutually agreed date, maybe your removal and LA costs including referencing, credit checks and such. If he agrees you are financially better off as you'll no longer have those costs, if he doesn't agree you can stay until the end and even wait for him to give you formal notice.
    • ALex
    • By ALex 13th Jun 17, 8:42 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ALex
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:42 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:42 PM
    Thanks for the replies.

    My specific concern was whether the literal interpretation of clauses 4.1 & 4.3 could be used as a mechanism for eviction since there will in fact be another person living in the Property other than my wife and I.

    Somewhat paranoid I accept, but thought it best to check.

    Thanks
    • mrginge
    • By mrginge 13th Jun 17, 8:46 PM
    • 4,034 Posts
    • 7,073 Thanks
    mrginge
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:46 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:46 PM
    Your landlord is thick.
    • novotose
    • By novotose 13th Jun 17, 9:03 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    novotose
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:03 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:03 PM
    The landlord can't just chuck you out before the AST ends. The landlord is contractually bound by law to remain in contract with you until the end of the AST.

    Provided you are not in arrears, then there is little the landlord can do until the AST ends.

    Now, your landlord could issue a Section 21 Notice, but that is a two month notice to end the contract, as you are in an AST til November, the Section 21 cannot state an earlier date than your renewal date in November.

    As there isn't a 'no children' stipulation in the contract, then you can't be served with any other notice to remove you. If you haven't breached contract then the only process is a Section 21.

    To remove you, a landlord would have to do the following:-

    Serve a Section 21 Notice with a date to vacate no earlier than your AST end date.

    Gain a possession order from the court once the Section 21 ends.

    Order Baliffs.

    There is very little to be done against you, but I would suggest you fully confirm that if you can get some legal advice from either Shelter or CAB.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 13th Jun 17, 9:58 PM
    • 2,570 Posts
    • 3,531 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:58 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 9:58 PM
    Your landlord needs to learn what they can and can't do. These people are not suitable to be landlords. They can't dictate to you about moving out before the baby is born. You could always contact your local council private tenants officer if there is one. Your landlord needs some lessons in how to be a landlord.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • 40,083 Posts
    • 45,772 Thanks
    G_M
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    As others have said:

    1) the Break Clause date has passed and cannot be used

    2) A S8 notice for rent arrears or similar breaches could be used, but I assume there are no arrears

    3) Thus you are secure until the fixed term ends in November

    As for Clause 4 - this is uneforcible. The landlord could serve a S8 ground 12 notice for breach of contract if a new occupant (other than those named) 'arrived'.
    He would then have to go to court to prove the breach and request possession.

    You would defend his action in court on the grounds that he was breaching your 'right to family life' (Human Rights Act 1998 article 8).

    The court would throw out his application and award your legal costs to him
    Last edited by G_M; 14-06-2017 at 12:00 AM.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 14th Jun 17, 6:00 AM
    • 15,606 Posts
    • 39,072 Thanks
    FBaby
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:00 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 17, 6:00 AM
    The landlord spoke to my wife today as she got in from work and indicated that she would like us to leave before the baby arrives.
    Did she say that she would like you to leave and or that if you did it would suit them?

    I think you are jumping the guns a bit here. She hasn't given you notice. Maybe they had a pleasant discussion, your wife said that you would be moving at the end of Nov and hope to find something on time and LL indicated that they would actually be flexible if you wanted to leave early.

    You say they are pleasant people, so maybe it was just all a misunderstanding. Very easily done.
    • paddy's mum
    • By paddy's mum 14th Jun 17, 8:18 AM
    • 3,460 Posts
    • 12,496 Thanks
    paddy's mum
    Recalling how time consuming and all encompassing the care of a new first baby can be, there might be a practical advantage in moving while the little one is still a bump, especially if the landlord will agree to pay some of your onward fees.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 14th Jun 17, 8:46 AM
    • 557 Posts
    • 360 Thanks
    saajan_12
    a) Even if having a baby live there breaches the term "only Alex and Alex's wife", I don't think it would be considered a material breach that would enable the Landlord to end the tenancy, perhaps he could sue for resultant losses/damages (doubt there'd be any losses)

    b) Even if he did get proof the baby was living there and got a possession order in Sept (unlikely), it would give you time to move, plus waiting for bailiffs would take you past November.

    So legally I think you're safe until November. Sounds like the LL will issue a Section 21 and evict you after the fixed term though, so I doubt you'll stretch it much into the new year, and you don't want the stress of waiting for bailiffs with a baby.

    However leaving pre baby might actually be better for you, than trying to search for properties, pay double rent for an overlap period, pack up and move with a two month old. Since the LL wants you to move, you might be able to negotiate a convenient move date to allow you to move leisurely and minimise overlap.
    • mouthscradle
    • By mouthscradle 14th Jun 17, 8:53 AM
    • 974 Posts
    • 1,122 Thanks
    mouthscradle
    Speaking as someone who moved house at 9 months pregnant, I would recommend doing it sooner rather than later. It definitely would have been even harder with a newborn!

    From the sounds of it, your landlord is obviously anti-babies and so chances are you will have to move in November. So as others have suggested, I would point out to your landlord that you're not at all obliged to leave before then, but would be willing to consider moving early IF they are going to cover your expenses - agency fees, removal costs, etc.
    Mother, wife, scientist, analyst.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jun 17, 10:23 AM
    • 14,477 Posts
    • 14,140 Thanks
    Guest101
    Hello all,

    My wife and I are currently 7 months into a 12 month AST ending early November 2017. We are expecting our first baby who is due in September and, as our landlord lives in an adjacent property on the same grounds, unsurprisingly this has not gone unnoticed.

    The landlord spoke to my wife today as she got in from work and indicated that she would like us to leave before the baby arrives. - That's unfortunate.

    Our tenancy agreement does not have a specific "no children" clause but does have the following relevant points: - It would not matter if it did or didn't. A court wont evict someone for having a child (so only a s.21 would work)
    "4. Use of the Property
    4.1 Not to assign, or sublet, part with possession of the Property, or let any other person live at the Property. - Not relevant
    4.2 To use the Property as a single private dwelling,
    and not to use it or any part of it for any other purpose, nor to allow anyone else to do so. - Not relevant
    4.3 The Property shall be used for the occupation of ALex and ALex's Wife." - Not relevant
    Later sections refer to "...the Tenant, his children, visitors, contractors or pets...". - not relevant

    We have a good relationship with our Landlord and I do not believe there is any malice intended. However if push comes to shove I want to understand whether there would be any grounds for an early eviction against our will before the end of the 12 month fixed period. - No, as a pregnant person your wife is protected from eviction. By proxy so are you, as joint tenant.

    I should also mention that the contract is subject to a six month break clause but I believe that it can no longer be executed as the relevant date has now passed. The clause is as follows:
    "S4. Break Clauses
    S4.1 The Landlord and Tenant shall have the right by giving not less than sixty day's advance written notice to the Landlord's Agent to terminate this tenancy on 10 May 2017 and on this date the Tenant shall yield up the premises in accordance with the provisions hereof with vacant possession and the Tenancy shall absolutely determine but without prejudice to any antecedent rights or claims of either party. The Landlord reserves the right having given reasonable notice and at reasonable times to show the Property to applicants or purchasers or valuers during the two months' notice period or during the last two months prior to termination of the tenancy." - So that is now passed.
    Note, we have always intended to move out at the end of the AST anyway, as the property is too cold over the winter months for a young child, so we are already keeping an eye on the local rental market.

    Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

    ALex
    Originally posted by ALex


    s.17 of the equality act


    17 Pregnancy and maternity discrimination: non-work casesE+W+S
    This section has no associated Explanatory Notes
    (1)This section has effect for the purposes of the application to the protected characteristic of pregnancy and maternity of—
    (a)Part 3 (services and public functions);
    (b)Part 4 (premises);
    (c)Part 6 (education);
    (d)Part 7 (associations).
    (2)A person (A) discriminates against a woman if A treats her unfavourably because of a pregnancy of hers.
    (3)A person (A) discriminates against a woman if, in the period of 26 weeks beginning with the day on which she gives birth, A treats her unfavourably because she has given birth.
    (4)The reference in subsection (3) to treating a woman unfavourably because she has given birth includes, in particular, a reference to treating her unfavourably because she is breast-feeding.
    (5)For the purposes of this section, the day on which a woman gives birth is the day on which—
    (a)she gives birth to a living child, or
    (b)she gives birth to a dead child (more than 24 weeks of the pregnancy having passed).
    (6)Section 13, so far as relating to sex discrimination, does not apply to anything done in relation to a woman in so far as—
    (a)it is for the reason mentioned in subsection (2), or
    (b)it is in the period, and for the reason, mentioned in subsection (3).


    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/4


    In essence she cannot evict you due to pregnancy.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 14th Jun 17, 10:30 AM
    • 14,477 Posts
    • 14,140 Thanks
    Guest101
    As others have said:

    1) the Break Clause date has passed and cannot be used

    2) A S8 notice for rent arrears or similar breaches could be used, but I assume there are no arrears

    3) Thus you are secure until the fixed term ends in November

    As for Clause 4 - this is uneforcible. The landlord could serve a S8 ground 12 notice for breach of contract if a new occupant (other than those named) 'arrived'.
    He would then have to go to court to prove the breach and request possession.

    You would defend his action in court on the grounds that he was breaching your 'right to family life' (Human Rights Act 1998 article 8).

    The court would throw out his application and award your legal costs to him
    Originally posted by G_M
    The equality act is simpler - it gives a specific timeframe for when such discrimination is illegal. (pregnancy and upto 26 weeks following)
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Jun 17, 11:50 AM
    • 40,083 Posts
    • 45,772 Thanks
    G_M
    The equality act is simpler - it gives a specific timeframe for when such discrimination is illegal. (pregnancy and upto 26 weeks following)
    Originally posted by Guest101
    True. Good point.

    So one thing or another seems the OP is safe till the fixed term ends, but, as others have said, coud always reach an agreement with the LL to leave earlier if they wished.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 14th Jun 17, 12:29 PM
    • 3,566 Posts
    • 2,239 Thanks
    csgohan4
    hope your deposit is protected, your LL seems a bit stupid
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land"
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Jun 17, 12:37 PM
    • 40,083 Posts
    • 45,772 Thanks
    G_M
    hope your deposit is protected, your LL seems a bit stupid
    Originally posted by csgohan4
    Or to put it another way:

    hope your deposit is not protected, your LL seems a bit stupid. That way you could be there for a long long time whatever the landlord wants!
    • harshitguptaiitr
    • By harshitguptaiitr 14th Jun 17, 3:00 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    harshitguptaiitr
    1 - You have not received a formal notice. So this could be a misunderstanding if the landlord was asking a mutual agreement to end tenancy early or making an order to vacate early

    2 - Break clause date is gone, so not relevant

    3 - The Property shall be used for the occupation of ALex and ALex's Wife -- this is not relevant for an infant.

    4 - Search aggressively for another property (as you already are)

    5 - If you ever have another discussion with your landlord on this topic, discuss about £££ to leave early.

    Conclusion: You are legally safe till end of AST.

    Most Important
    YOUR WIFE MUST NOT TAKE ANY STRESS. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE BABY.
    • DumbMuscle
    • By DumbMuscle 14th Jun 17, 3:06 PM
    • 241 Posts
    • 287 Thanks
    DumbMuscle
    Most Important
    YOUR WIFE MUST NOT TAKE ANY STRESS. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE BABY.
    Originally posted by harshitguptaiitr
    But don't be stressed about being stressed, otherwise you may end up in an infinite loop and spontaneously combust.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 14th Jun 17, 3:19 PM
    • 7,872 Posts
    • 4,695 Thanks
    teddysmum
    Another advantage of moving early is that the weather is likely to be warmer. Moving involves doors being open for long periods so lots of wasted heat in November.
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