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    • rentmekid
    • By rentmekid 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    • 47Posts
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    rentmekid
    landlord bashing
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    landlord bashing 13th Jun 17 at 2:36 PM
    After reading a number of posts/replies on this forum, I have noticed that many people hate the idea of someone owning more than 1 property and renting out.


    Frequent comments are: "people cant afford to buy one property, why should you have 2", or similar.


    At the end of the day, a private landlord is providing a similar service to the housing association, so why the hatred, or is it jealousy?


    Also, its not the Landlords fault that someone cant afford a house.


    Are my view justified?
Page 3
    • caronoel
    • By caronoel 13th Jun 17, 6:11 PM
    • 668 Posts
    • 861 Thanks
    caronoel
    After reading a number of posts/replies on this forum, I have noticed that many people hate the idea of someone owning more than 1 property and renting out.


    Frequent comments are: "people cant afford to buy one property, why should you have 2", or similar.
    Originally posted by rentmekid
    Such attitudes can be summed up in one nasty word: envy
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 13th Jun 17, 6:28 PM
    • 2,299 Posts
    • 2,100 Thanks
    cjdavies
    Such attitudes can be summed up in one nasty word: envy
    Originally posted by caronoel
    Envy - no, just want landlords to learn what they should be doing not to screw tenets over.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 13th Jun 17, 6:44 PM
    • 2,442 Posts
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    Cakeguts
    I am a landlord. There is one small mortgage. None of the properties are typical 1st time buyer properties. We specialise in 3 bed properties. 2 of our properties have tenants who have stayed for more than 10 years. Most tenancies last for at least 3 years. 5 years or more is not unusual. The properties are managed by good agents and repairs are done as soon as we are told about them. We have very few voids. Some of us are trying to do a good job.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 13th Jun 17, 6:46 PM
    • 17,666 Posts
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    agrinnall
    OP hasn't come back to add anything further to the discussion so I suspect his intention was to try and stir up an argument.
    Originally posted by fairy lights
    I guess you missed post #23 then (although to be fair it didn't add much).
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 13th Jun 17, 7:34 PM
    • 4,044 Posts
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    00ec25
    so why the hatred
    Originally posted by rentmekid
    because it is not an accident that makes you choose to be a LL, therefore you need to behave in a professional manner, not bleat about how ill served you are by "forced" circumstances
    or is it jealousy?
    Originally posted by rentmekid
    yes
    Also, its not the Landlords fault that someone cant afford a house.
    Originally posted by rentmekid
    agreed, see above
    • dekaspace
    • By dekaspace 13th Jun 17, 8:04 PM
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    dekaspace
    As a renter and someone who has had years of bad (and some good) landlord experience what I say and what I notice is that many people don't mind landlords owning more than one property as much as landlords increasing the amount they own which means less properties around for first time buyers and also landlords doing bare minimum to get a property up to scratch then jack prices up to renters, thats if they even bother to do much or any work in first place.

    I had previous landlords complain when their properties were empty despite the properites I rented from them being at top range of local rents and being in average at best condition when renting them to me, rather than reduce the rent they want to a reasonable level for both parties they keep prices at same despite local rentals decreasing in price and often better quality.

    That and the things I dislike is when I spend days scrubbing a property top to bottom when I move, even borrowing carpet cleaning machines being told property isn't clean enough, or how they have found a few bits of dust in a corner means I was lying when I said I cleaned, or how like a 10 year+ item of furniture is falling to pieces its somehow my fault.

    Thats the sort of thing I don't like about landlords.
    • LdnFtB
    • By LdnFtB 13th Jun 17, 8:05 PM
    • 25 Posts
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    LdnFtB
    Its not the Landlords fault that someone cant afford a house.
    Originally posted by rentmekid
    Yes, yes it is, but that's a big subject for another day. Suffice to say that 80% of 1 bed flats and 50% of 2 bed flats are owned by landlords who for a variety of reasons can outbid FtB's (at least until recently).

    But I think this thread - AST Eviction due to pregnancy - is a perfect example of why landlords get (and deserve) so much grief. Complete ignorance of the law on the part of the landlord leading to an illegal attempt at eviction, and no doubt accompanied by an attitude that they're doing the world a favour by providing housing.

    In over a decade of renting I've met plenty of those types of landlords - amateurs who think that tenants should be grateful for what little they do - and the decent ones have been few and far between.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    • 14,373 Posts
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    AdrianC
    YSuffice to say that 80% of 1 bed flats and 50% of 2 bed flats are owned by landlords
    Originally posted by LdnFtB
    I'm sure you'll be only too happy to produce a source for that statistic?
    • LdnFtB
    • By LdnFtB 13th Jun 17, 8:25 PM
    • 25 Posts
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    LdnFtB
    I'm sure you'll be only too happy to produce a source for that statistic?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Sure, it's the English Housing Survey.
    • Pennylane
    • By Pennylane 13th Jun 17, 8:35 PM
    • 1,992 Posts
    • 5,449 Thanks
    Pennylane
    I appreciate my landlord. He does repairs quickly, charges a fair rent, and leaves me in peace. I anticipate he will be completely reasonable about the return of my deposit at the end of my tenancy.
    But:

    *Some* landlords treat their tenants like money trees.
    *Some* landlords are terrible, whether through ignorance or malice.

    Private landlords differ from most housing associations in that their primary motivation is to get return on an investment, and not to provide a public service. With a different set of structural incentives, housing associations would continue to provide housing, while many/most landlords would be investing elsewhere.

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with landlords investing in rental property. There will always be people who want to rent, and there's no reason private individuals shouldn't be suppliers in that market.

    However, the current batch of consumers in the rental market includes a substantial number of people who would prefer to buy, but can't. Some of those people would never be able to buy under any circumstance. But, there are a good number of people, especially young people, who would stand a decent chance if certain structural/economic factors were different. One of those factors is the popularity of BTL as an investment, or, perhaps more accurately, recent policy history that has incentivised BTL investment. Most obviously, landlords simultaneously increase demand and decrease supply of houses for purchase, contributing to housing price increases. LL's also drive "the market" for rental prices -- people pretend the market somehow dictates prices, when in fact the market is dictated to by one or more parties in a transaction.

    So, no, it's not Landlord Jane's fault that Tenant Bob can't buy a house. However, Landlord Jane very well may have made it incrementally more difficult for Tenant Bob to buy a house.
    Originally posted by itchyfeet123
    Good to hear and I appreciate OUR tenants. They are a lovely couple, they've been in the house 6 years and it's like a palace! Rent is paid by direct debit every month and we have never put their rent up in all that time until this year.

    If they have a problem it is dealt with the same day as we live close enough to be able to do that.

    There are great tenants and there are great landlords as well as the terrible ones we hear about.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 13th Jun 17, 8:42 PM
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    Crashy Time
    https://audioboom.com/posts/5793636-sell-up-hold-or-expand


    When the government is the biggest landlord basher you know that you should REALLY know what you are doing before getting into the landlord game?
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jun 17, 8:59 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    OK, and if there was no demand for buying that property from owner-occupiers?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Then the price would drop until there was demand, surely?
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jun 17, 9:06 PM
    • 1,174 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    They sound very unusual figures. Can you give any examples?
    £430 mortgage for a 90% LTV would be around £105k purchase price.

    Or are you meaning interest only mortgage payments? If so, that may allow you around £230k purchase price, but those loans are very hard to obtain these days without having some kind of other repayment vehicle in place. What were you thinking of, and how much monthly allowance are you making?

    And what about when interest rates rise, as they will inevitably do?
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    In the building where I used to live, I paid less than £250 a month for a flat purchased for around £80,000. The year I moved in, the identical flat next door was rented out for £600pm. I've since moved out but I just checked on Rightmove and those flats are now going for £750pm. If I still lived there I'd have remortgaged and probably be paying even less than that £250, as well as having gained a lot of equity from the rise in value.

    Even when buying isn't instantly cheaper than renting, it usually is in the long term.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 9:10 PM
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    AdrianC
    Suffice to say that 80% of 1 bed flats and 50% of 2 bed flats are owned by landlords
    Originally posted by LdnFtB
    I'm sure you'll be only too happy to produce a source for that statistic
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Sure, it's the English Housing Survey.
    Originally posted by LdnFtB
    Mmm. From a quick squiz through, I'm not sure where you're getting those figures. Perhaps you could clarify?

    Nearest I can find is Annex Table 2.2 of the Section 2 spreadsheet.

    That gives 19.5% of 1 x twin bedroom properties in private owner-occupier tenure...
    BUT... 30.6% in private rental, and the other 50.0% in social rental.
    1 x single bed properties lean slightly more heavily towards private rental - 44.9%, with 12.5% owner-occupier and 42.6% social. They would mainly be in HMOs, I would have thought, so it's probably a surprise it's not higher.

    Of two-bed properties, 1 x twin + 1 x single is 31.2% private rental, 47.7% owner-occupier.
    2 x twin is 49.1% owner-occupier, 28.6% private rental.

    Owner-occupied properties had larger floor areas than rented, on average, in all four of those subcategories.

    Those figures don't break down between houses and flats, however, so I may be missing something, but I would have thought the 1 bed house was a very rare thing... If you look at AT2.1, it does give building types - the only type where private rented are more common than owner-occupied are converted flat, purpose-built low-rise and purpose-built high-rise. In both of the purpose-built types, social rental is more common than private rental. The ONLY type where private rental is the most common is converted flat - 61.6% - but these are only 11% of private rented properties (point 2.7, p26 of the report)
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 9:12 PM
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    AdrianC
    In the building where I used to live, I paid less than £250 a month for a flat purchased for around £80,000.
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    £250/mo would be a mortgage of around £55,000 at 2.49%.

    The year I moved in, the identical flat next door was rented out for £600pm. I've since moved out but I just checked on Rightmove and those flats are now going for £750pm.
    How much per month service charge is the landlord paying within that rent? And what are sale values now?

    Even when buying isn't instantly cheaper than renting, it usually is in the long term.
    That's true, but against that is flexibility.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jun 17, 9:21 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    £250/mo would be a mortgage of around £55,000 at 2.49%.



    How much per month service charge is the landlord paying within that rent? And what are sale values now?



    That's true, but against that is flexibility.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yes that's about right, think it was closer to £60,000 but the interest rate was very good.

    Service charge was very reasonable at around £750-800 per year. Ground rent of £125.

    I sold the flat for £120,000 in 2015 and bought a 3 bed house in a nice area thanks to the rise in equity. It would fetch around £135,000 now.

    That landlord ain't doing so bad, is he?

    (I was encouraged by many friends and family to try and keep the flat as it would have been a serious moneyspinner, but I don't agree with BTL and had no desire to be a landlord anyway.)
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 13th Jun 17, 9:22 PM
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    Crashy Time
    http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/young-hull-family-say-landlord-tax-changes-could-leave-them-homeless/story-30170010-detail/story.html


    So when they are homeless, who will take their place and pay 900 p.m for a basic flat in Hull, and if the landlord can get this amount why isn`t he doing so already! The mind boggles at the nonsense that is written about renting sometimes.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 13th Jun 17, 9:24 PM
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    Crashy Time
    Yes that's about right, think it was closer to £60,000 but the interest rate was very good.

    Service charge was very reasonable at around £750-800 per year. Ground rent of £125.

    I sold the flat for £120,000 in 2015 and bought a 3 bed house in a nice area thanks to the rise in equity. It would fetch around £135,000 now.

    That landlord ain't doing so bad, is he?

    (I was encouraged by many friends and family to try and keep the flat as it would have been a serious moneyspinner, but I don't agree with BTL and had no desire to be a landlord anyway.)
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel

    So you are not sure if you paid 60,000 or 80, 000 for a flat?
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jun 17, 9:27 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    So you are not sure if you paid 60,000 or 80, 000 for a flat?
    Originally posted by Crashy Time
    Try to keep up, I had a £60,000 mortgage on an £80,000 flat.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 9:28 PM
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    AdrianC
    Yes that's about right, think it was closer to £60,000 but the interest rate was very good.

    Service charge was very reasonable at around £750-800 per year. Ground rent of £125.

    I sold the flat for £120,000 in 2015 and bought a 3 bed house in a nice area thanks to the rise in equity. It would fetch around £135,000 now.

    That landlord ain't doing so bad, is he?
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    £750/mo is £9k/year. Less the service charge/ground rent is £8,100. For a £135k property, that's about a 6% yield - right up there at the top-end.

    90% mortgage (£120k) is £540/mo, plus that service charge/ground rent - £75/mo - so that's £615/mo for the flat that your neighbour was paying £660/mo for.
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