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    • rentmekid
    • By rentmekid 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    • 49Posts
    • 25Thanks
    rentmekid
    landlord bashing
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    landlord bashing 13th Jun 17 at 2:36 PM
    After reading a number of posts/replies on this forum, I have noticed that many people hate the idea of someone owning more than 1 property and renting out.


    Frequent comments are: "people cant afford to buy one property, why should you have 2", or similar.


    At the end of the day, a private landlord is providing a similar service to the housing association, so why the hatred, or is it jealousy?


    Also, its not the Landlords fault that someone cant afford a house.


    Are my view justified?
Page 2
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 13th Jun 17, 3:34 PM
    • 8,768 Posts
    • 11,599 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    There appear, sadly, to be more cheating/crooked/bent/ignorant/stupid landlords than for most other occupations:

    Shame on too many of the landlord community for not doing more about it, and, afaik, trying to block sensible reforms of the system!
    • cloo
    • By cloo 13th Jun 17, 3:47 PM
    • 880 Posts
    • 715 Thanks
    cloo
    I'd say blame the system, not the landlords, per se. It's ridiculous that this country ran down the idea of institutional private landlords post war and then made it a free for all for anyone to buy a house and let it, with no training, no solid pipeline of the information they'd need to do it correctly and fairly etc. And I say this having been one myself, I have learned not to to say 'accidental' here, but I didn't buy the property with intent to let and under the circumstances I made the decision to turn landlord. And I'm proud of how I acted - I responded to repairs fast, I barely raised the rent and I helped my tenants to buy their own property afterwards by having charged a low rent.

    Most landlords are fair and honest and have muddled through, a significant minority are incompetent and a small minority are outright crooks.

    Landlords do provide a service and homes, but the model is flawed because most landlords own just the one property, which means at some point they will need to sell it, unlike an institutional owner who can sell on without turning out the residents.

    One thing that does annoy me is the assertion I sometimes see that landlords are 'turning people out of their homes to make a buck' when they sell up. It may not help you much when you're the one losing your home, but I think people need to understand that your average LL who rents out one place (and may, aside from having the property, not be a big earner or have a big house themselves) sells up or needs the property back, it's likely for a significant reason, such as a they need a larger home for their family, they're retiring, they want to give their kids a deposit etc. Not because they want to pay for a luxury cruise or a gold-plated Mercedes.

    But as I said, it's a very bad model to rely on small landlords like this for the market - they cannot offer stability and you end up with people having to move time and again when the owner has to sell up or otherwise take the property back, and take their chances that the next LL might be rotten - it's no way to do things.
    • rentmekid
    • By rentmekid 13th Jun 17, 3:48 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    rentmekid
    excellent views and comments. Thank you all
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 13th Jun 17, 3:55 PM
    • 1,198 Posts
    • 3,508 Thanks
    Penitent
    Things like this, from somebody trying to avoid paying back a deposit they didn't protect...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I found that post really confusing. If they didn't suddenly decide to be landlords (so it was something they put a lot of thought into), how could they possibly not know about protecting deposits? By insisting it wasn't a sudden decision, they made themselves look even sillier. I genuinely don't know what kind of backstory they thought justified that kind of negligence.
    • Tiners
    • By Tiners 13th Jun 17, 4:14 PM
    • 142 Posts
    • 165 Thanks
    Tiners
    BTL (Sometimes known as Borrow To Leech) creates it's own demand... every property taken off the market by a landlord denies someone from buying that property as an owner occupier.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jun 17, 4:17 PM
    • 14,417 Posts
    • 14,056 Thanks
    Guest101
    BTL (Sometimes known as Borrow To Leech) creates it's own demand... every property taken off the market by a landlord denies someone from buying that property as an owner occupier.
    Originally posted by Tiners


    That's not how it works, so I assume that's just an opinion?....
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 4:24 PM
    • 14,710 Posts
    • 13,076 Thanks
    AdrianC
    BTL (Sometimes known as Borrow To Leech) creates it's own demand... every property taken off the market by a landlord denies someone from buying that property as an owner occupier.
    Originally posted by Tiners
    OK, and if there was no demand for buying that property from owner-occupiers?
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 13th Jun 17, 4:39 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    LadyL2013
    I have no issue with good landlords that are buying properties that FTB can't otherwise afford or doing up dilapidated properties.


    My issue comes with cash buyers competing against FTB's on houses that are well within their budget. An FTB only has a finite budget compared to many cash buyers and so in my and many people I knows experience, they lose out all the time to investors who can top even a very high offer from FTB. This means they then rent them out at a higher cost to people like FTB and it inflates the bottom of the property ladder and you can never get on it.


    You only have to go on Rightmove to see even a 1 bed property is very expensive, but a 2 or 3 bed isn't really that much more than a 1 bed.


    Personally, I'd like to see a law change that prohibits BTL from buying starter homes.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    • 14,710 Posts
    • 13,076 Thanks
    AdrianC
    My issue comes with cash buyers competing against FTB's on houses that are well within their budget. An FTB only has a finite budget compared to many cash buyers and so in my and many people I knows experience, they lose out all the time to investors who can top even a very high offer from FTB. This means they then rent them out at a higher cost to people like FTB and it inflates the bottom of the property ladder and you can never get on it.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    Owner-occupiers can afford to pay more than sensible landlords, because they don't have the cap of having to return a realistic yield after costs, tax etc - many of which hit smaller properties disproportionately hard. A gas safety check costs the same for a four-bed house as a 1-bed flat, for example.

    Personally, I'd like to see a law change that prohibits BTL from buying starter homes.
    Which, of course, would then mean no studio, 1-bed, 2-bed "starter" private rentals...
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 13th Jun 17, 4:49 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    LadyL2013
    Owner-occupiers can afford to pay more than sensible landlords, because they don't have the cap of having to return a realistic yield after costs, tax etc - many of which hit smaller properties disproportionately hard. A gas safety check costs the same for a four-bed house as a 1-bed flat, for example.

    Which, of course, would then mean no studio, 1-bed, 2-bed "starter" private rentals...
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    The problem is way too many people seeing starter homes a san easy way to make money without thinking it through. The market encourages it.


    I see your point. Perhaps then the system should be FTB gets priority over a cash buyer then, presuming the FTB offer is at or above asking price. Ultimately something has to be done. Anyone who has been an FTB recently will tell you it is nigh on impossible to compete with cash buyers. It is then incredibly frustrating to see a house you could afford and offered over the asking pride for being let out for double what a mortgage payment would have been. You don't mind losing out to another FTB, at least they're getting they're own home, it stings to lose out to somebody whose not even going to live in it.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jun 17, 4:55 PM
    • 14,417 Posts
    • 14,056 Thanks
    Guest101
    The problem is way too many people seeing starter homes a san easy way to make money without thinking it through. The market encourages it.


    I see your point. Perhaps then the system should be FTB gets priority over a cash buyer then, presuming the FTB offer is at or above asking price. Ultimately something has to be done. Anyone who has been an FTB recently will tell you it is nigh on impossible to compete with cash buyers. It is then incredibly frustrating to see a house you could afford and offered over the asking pride for being let out for double what a mortgage payment would have been. You don't mind losing out to another FTB, at least they're getting they're own home, it stings to lose out to somebody whose not even going to live in it.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013


    Hold on you want to regulate who can buy property? You see nothing wrong with that?...
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    • 14,710 Posts
    • 13,076 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I see your point. Perhaps then the system should be FTB gets priority over a cash buyer then, presuming the FTB offer is at or above asking price.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    Who gets to decide on when that priority is outweighed, then?

    Ultimately something has to be done.
    ...and this is something, therefore this has to be done!

    Anyone who has been an FTB recently will tell you it is nigh on impossible to compete with cash buyers.
    Cash buyers, or landlords? Don't confuse the two. The BtL buyers you're complaining about are usually highly geared, not cash buyers.

    It is then incredibly frustrating to see a house you could afford and offered over the asking pride for being let out for double what a mortgage payment would have been.
    ...the numbers don't work anywhere NEAR that simply...

    Let's take an example of a £100k property.
    MSE best buy mortgage is 2.45% for 90% LTV. That's £402/mo repayment, using the MSE mortgage calculator.

    Are you telling me that a £100k flat would rent for £800/mo? That'd be a damn near 10% raw yield. No... Not realistic at all...

    I could point you to a very nice 2-bed modern flat in the centre of my local city at £112,500, with service charge/ground rent/management/sinking fund payment slightly north of £110/mo. The rent on it would be around £550/mo. So that's around £440/mo in the landlord's pocket, before other costs and tax - a yield of around 4.7%. Mortgage repayments on that flat would be £448/mo, so £560ish after the service charge. And that flat has been for sale since SEPTEMBER 2015... Simply, it's overpriced. That service charge doesn't help one bit.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 13-06-2017 at 5:06 PM.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jun 17, 5:02 PM
    • 14,417 Posts
    • 14,056 Thanks
    Guest101
    Who gets to decide on when that priority is outweighed, then?



    ...and this is something, therefore this has to be done!



    Cash buyers, or landlords? Don't confuse the two. The BtL buyers you're complaining about are usually highly geared, not cash buyers.



    ...the numbers don't work anywhere NEAR that simply...

    Let's take an example of a £100k property.
    MSE best buy mortgage is 2.45% for 90% LTV. That's £402/mo repayment, using the MSE mortgage calculator.

    Are you telling me that a £100k flat would rent for £800/mo? That'd be a damn near 10% raw yield. No... Not realistic at all...
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Bravo! - I cant believe someone would actually suggest that. - and then when it came to selling their property they'd be back on here complaining.


    "I have a cash buyer offering more, but have to accept the lower offer of the FTB HELP!!!"
    • ognum
    • By ognum 13th Jun 17, 5:19 PM
    • 4,459 Posts
    • 6,683 Thanks
    ognum
    I am a LL, I may well get bashed for what I have to say but that's fine.

    I own a few rental properties, I have no mortgages, no one has given me anything in my life. When we were young we were very poor. We have both worked and have had some lucky breaks.

    We have good pension provision, have money in the stock market and our rental property is part of our spread of assets. Having said that I am dedicated to providing comfortable property that I would live in myself. I employ a carefully selected agent who manages the property well and if a tenants property needs maintenance it will be done quickly.

    If interest rates had not fallen to the small amounts they are now ( I am happy that people with mortgages have reduced their burden and as a country we can't have high saving rates and low borrowing rates) I would have kept my money that provides me an income in the bank and got a much easier life.

    I am not an accidental LL, I have a careful strategy of what I buy and what rent I charge to keep good tenants. All my tenants have stayed at least 2+ years most more than 4 years, many leaving to buy themselves.

    I do feel guilty that I am causing a property shortage but simply by me stopping buying will not change the world.
    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 13th Jun 17, 5:21 PM
    • 7,812 Posts
    • 25,669 Thanks
    fairy lights
    OP hasn't come back to add anything further to the discussion so I suspect his intention was to try and stir up an argument.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 5:22 PM
    • 14,710 Posts
    • 13,076 Thanks
    AdrianC
    OP hasn't come back to add anything further to the discussion so I suspect his intention was to try and stir up an argument.
    Originally posted by fairy lights
    TBF, that was less than three hours ago.
    • leslieknope
    • By leslieknope 13th Jun 17, 5:25 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 263 Thanks
    leslieknope
    i have nothing against landlords.

    landlords who don't think they should have to fulfill their legal requirements or who post for advice on tax avoidance? i have somewhere they can go.
    CCCC #33: £42/£240
    DFW: £4355/£4405
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 13th Jun 17, 5:33 PM
    • 3,614 Posts
    • 7,212 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    Thing is, most threads on this board are, understandably, from one side(!)or the other with a problem or two; that's why they are posting.

    Hop over to the Consumer Rights board, and you'll soon learn that Currys PC World are run by a bunch of teenage idiots that couldn't put a battery in a vibrator, and that their attitude to any problem is to lie/cheat/say "la la la" or whatever.

    Now, I have shopped at five or six PCW over the last ten years, the staff have always been polite(ish), reasonably helpful, and accepted genuine returns without problems. They have also been cheap, for the items I wanted, or I would have shopped elsewhere.

    The posts don't reflect reality, they are a skewed sample.

    Equally, I have let out properties for over 20 years, never had a problem, never had a dispute, had very good relationships with tenants (including cakes, kittens and booze as presents - even a wedding invite!). So, neither I nor (to my knowledge, my tenants) have ever posted moans, groans or gripes on this board.

    Of course, it's entirely possible my life is skewed, all tenants are scum, and all landlords cheating shysters.....
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 13th Jun 17, 5:55 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    LadyL2013
    Hold on you want to regulate who can buy property? You see nothing wrong with that?...
    Originally posted by Guest101
    I think there needs to be regulation, yes. I'm not saying there shouldn't be rental properties of all kinds, of course there should be, but I also think there needs to be more fairness in the housing market, which there currently isn't.

    Who gets to decide on when that priority is outweighed, then?

    ...and this is something, therefore this has to be done!

    Cash buyers, or landlords? Don't confuse the two. The BtL buyers you're complaining about are usually highly geared, not cash buyers.

    ...the numbers don't work anywhere NEAR that simply...

    Let's take an example of a £100k property.
    MSE best buy mortgage is 2.45% for 90% LTV. That's £402/mo repayment, using the MSE mortgage calculator.

    Are you telling me that a £100k flat would rent for £800/mo? That'd be a damn near 10% raw yield. No... Not realistic at all...

    I could point you to a very nice 2-bed modern flat in the centre of my local city at £112,500, with service charge/ground rent/management/sinking fund payment slightly north of £110/mo. The rent on it would be around £550/mo. So that's around £440/mo in the landlord's pocket, before other costs and tax - a yield of around 4.7%. Mortgage repayments on that flat would be £448/mo, so £560ish after the service charge. And that flat has been for sale since SEPTEMBER 2015... Simply, it's overpriced. That service charge doesn't help one bit.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yes, you are right. I mean BTL, rather than cash buyer. I apologise, it has been a long day!

    Perhaps where you live, maybe. Where I live rental payments are nearly a double a mortgage payment and that's before you add bills. For example, on a 1 bed property where I am my monthly mortgage would be approx £430, an identical house is (looking on Rightmove right now) the very cheapest I can find is £720pcm without bills and it's not in the best condition. A house share alone will set you back £500.

    Bravo! - I cant believe someone would actually suggest that. - and then when it came to selling their property they'd be back on here complaining.

    "I have a cash buyer offering more, but have to accept the lower offer of the FTB HELP!!!"
    Originally posted by Guest101
    I just think the system needs to be fairer. I'm not sure exactly how it may be done, but the bottom of the market is absolutely strangled. Maybe X % of starter homes can be rentals (to make sure that people who want to rent have their needs met), then another x% of houses for sale have FTB as priority (as long as FTB is offering at or above asking price). Again, I don't know exactly the way to make it work, but I think you'll struggle to find anyone currently in the situation who will tell you the system is fair or isn't entirely skewed towards BTL.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jun 17, 6:00 PM
    • 14,710 Posts
    • 13,076 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Perhaps where you live, maybe. Where I live rental payments are nearly a double a mortgage payment and that's before you add bills. For example, on a 1 bed property where I am my monthly mortgage would be approx £430, an identical house is (looking on Rightmove right now) the very cheapest I can find is £720pcm without bills and it's not in the best condition. A house share alone will set you back £500.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    They sound very unusual figures. Can you give any examples?
    £430 mortgage for a 90% LTV would be around £105k purchase price.

    Or are you meaning interest only mortgage payments? If so, that may allow you around £230k purchase price, but those loans are very hard to obtain these days without having some kind of other repayment vehicle in place. What were you thinking of, and how much monthly allowance are you making?

    And what about when interest rates rise, as they will inevitably do?
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