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  • FIRST POST
    • rentmekid
    • By rentmekid 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    • 47Posts
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    rentmekid
    landlord bashing
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 2:36 PM
    landlord bashing 13th Jun 17 at 2:36 PM
    After reading a number of posts/replies on this forum, I have noticed that many people hate the idea of someone owning more than 1 property and renting out.


    Frequent comments are: "people cant afford to buy one property, why should you have 2", or similar.


    At the end of the day, a private landlord is providing a similar service to the housing association, so why the hatred, or is it jealousy?


    Also, its not the Landlords fault that someone cant afford a house.


    Are my view justified?
Page 10
    • Spikey's mum
    • By Spikey's mum 15th Jun 17, 8:56 PM
    • 2 Posts
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    Spikey's mum
    I'm a landlord of one property that I rent out. It's a one bed flat in Edinburgh which cost me £145K to buy and is being rented for £650 per month (the mortgage is £920). On top of that I have home insurance, gas checks, electrical safety checks, maintenance, cost of furnishing etc. So why do it?

    The reason I and many other small landlords have bought a 2nd property is because we have no pension or very little pension. In my case I put money into a pension for years and my estimated retirement income from it is laughable. By buying another property it is my way of saving towards my retirement so I am not completely poverty stricken or reliant on the state. If people still had good pensions like my parents did then I would not have bothered. This pension problem is forcing people to provide themselves a pension plan via the only way they know how... property. My flat that I rent is well furnished, very well maintained and before my first tenant moved in I spent close to £2000 on furniture and lots of non essentials like towels and bedding many things most landlords don't provide. My aim was to provide a nice home for someone whilst yes getting help to pay the mortgage. Am I a heartless ogre? I don't think so. Feel free to disagree. I earn a very average wage from my day job and nothing at the moment from renting the property (it's a cost to me)

    However I have lots of sympathy for FTB who are trying to get on the property ladder. I bought the flat at closing date and had to bid against several others. I had to mortgage my own little flat (previously mortgage free) to raise the deposit and outbid the other interested parties.

    I don't know what the solution is. I feel for my generation who are retiring in 10-15 years with no pension and I also feel for the young ones struggling to get on the ladder.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Jun 17, 9:28 PM
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    AdrianC
    Indeed, but the interpretation is often not uniform. The judges personal experience and morals may dictate how they interpret it.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    "Common law" means "law made by judges" - essentially the outcome of judge decisions made through the years.

    Judges do have to interpret Acts of parliament. But there are plenty of areas of law which are solely common law, with no Acts of parliament.

    For example contract law is almost entirely judge made.
    Originally posted by steampowered
    Judges form precedents, especially in higher courts. Precedents determine interpretations.

    Much of the detail of contract law is codified, built on top of basic common law principles. The one thing you forgot to mention about judges making common law... it happened over centuries.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Jun 17, 9:36 PM
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    AdrianC
    I'm a landlord of one property that I rent out. It's a one bed flat in Edinburgh which cost me £145K to buy and is being rented for £650 per month (the mortgage is £920).
    Originally posted by Spikey's mum
    Are you sure about that...?
    A BtL mortgage is typically maximum 75% LtV. That's £108,750. Over 25 years, a repayment mortgage would have to be north of 9% for that monthly repayment. Even at 95% LtV, that'd be north of 7%...

    On top of that I have home insurance, gas checks, electrical safety checks, maintenance, cost of furnishing etc. So why do it?
    Indeed. Roughly how much loss would you expect you make in an average year? Even on the figures you've given, your yield is -2.25%, and that's before inflation...

    The reason I and many other small landlords have bought a 2nd property is because we have no pension or very little pension. In my case I put money into a pension for years and my estimated retirement income from it is laughable. By buying another property it is my way of saving towards my retirement so I am not completely poverty stricken or reliant on the state.
    Let us know what your annual loss is, and we'll work out what sort of averaged annual growth you need to get from this flat to beat even a very low risk index...

    If people still had good pensions like my parents did then I would not have bothered. This pension problem is forcing people to provide themselves a pension plan via the only way they know how... property.
    That doesn't mean it's the only way - or, even, the best way.

    My flat that I rent is well furnished, very well maintained and before my first tenant moved in I spent close to £2000 on furniture and lots of non essentials like towels and bedding many things most landlords don't provide.
    Are you registered with the charities commission? You probably should be...
    • Spikey's mum
    • By Spikey's mum 15th Jun 17, 10:03 PM
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    Spikey's mum
    AdrianC - thank you for taking the time to answer my post.

    Yes the mortgage figure is correct. However it is split over 2 mortgages - a 50% BTL mortage secured on the rented property and a 50% residential mortgage secured on my own flat (previously owned outright). Thus the cost to me in total of buying the 145K flat is £920 per month. The mortgages are also over 16 years not 25.

    I understand that yield from a property is defined by the rental income / property price x 100. In this case my yield is approx 5.5%. However I would say yield should be (rental income - costs)/property price. The only costs you would take into account are running costs ie insurance, gas inspections etc. You would not include the mortgage. Why?
    We are working out the yield (money in) as a % of the money invested (145K).
    The £920 per month is the cost to me of obtaining 145K. I don't actually have 145K.
    If I had 145K in cash and bought the property outright it would be giving me a yield of 5.5%.
    If I put that same cash in the bank I would be getting probably less.
    You are calculating my profit (or in this case loss) not yield.
    I think that was the whole point of my post to show that whilst my yield was decent I was not some rich nasty landlord.

    If you know where to get a better return on 145K than 5% per annum I would be happy to hear about it. Honestly I would. Having spent years putting money into a pension I am happy this gives better odds. I can't see any banks bettering these rates but I am happy to be proven wrong.

    Ah so landlords are charities when they are decent and horrible when they are not. Can't win then.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 16th Jun 17, 10:14 AM
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    Guest101
    Judges form precedents, especially in higher courts. Precedents determine interpretations.

    Much of the detail of contract law is codified, built on top of basic common law principles. The one thing you forgot to mention about judges making common law... it happened over centuries.
    Originally posted by AdrianC


    Just saying that judges do make mistakes, whether it's bias or not I don't know. I wasn't there.


    but:


    http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2016/05/24/judges-making-mistakes-possession-orders-massive-scale/
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 16th Jun 17, 10:16 AM
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    Guest101
    Well yes, there is only one type of bread and your options are to have no bread at all, to borrow the bread off of me or buy your own bread, but if I buy your bread, you're left with only 2 choices. There are other breads, but you're likely to run into the same problem. - Am I? Why?

    The law wouldn't be prohibiting landlords from buying property, far from it, it would just be saying that in X situation - and what is X situation. This is your policy, so expand upon it. with X type of property - what is x type of property? , FTB get first priority. It's no different to waiting lists for other things, it just means those who need it most, get first try (as long as that offer is reasonable) - whats reasonable? What if I don't want to sell to a FTB? . They don't get it for free, they still have to be financially suitable.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013


    And... Where do these FTBs live before they buy?....
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 16th Jun 17, 10:18 AM
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    Guest101
    I see what you're getting at and it's true that some live beyond their means and that's why they can't afford things, but there's also many people living within their means and they still can't afford a property. For example, the average price for a starter home where I live is 150k, let's assume, you've saved your average 10k deposit, hen you'd need to be earning at least 28k - what just a bit more than the average salary? between two of you? a year to get a mortgage for said property and that's being optimistic. The average wage for the UK last time I checked was about 25k. So even if you're earning about average and have saved a deposit, you're still out of luck in many areas.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    Only if you're buying on your own. - I could equally say those doing that are being selfish, that home could be rented to a couple with a child instead...
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 16th Jun 17, 12:20 PM
    • 125 Posts
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    LadyL2013
    And... Where do these FTBs live before they buy?....
    Originally posted by Guest101

    With parents, but it's better for the economy for people to be on the property ladder and the fact that no one particularly wants to live with their parents especially when you couple up or have a child.

    Only if you're buying on your own. - I could equally say those doing that are being selfish, that home could be rented to a couple with a child instead...
    Originally posted by Guest101

    Well in social housing that IS how it's prioritised, but a couple with a child aren't likely to be looking at a 1 bed anyway.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 16th Jun 17, 1:09 PM
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    Guest101
    With parents - Hold on, since when is this a 'thing'? I don't want my kids living with me until their mid twenties, I certainly wouldn't want them buying a house without ever running a household, or getting financially linked to a person they've not lived with... How is any of that sensible? , but it's better for the economy for people to be on the property ladder and the fact that no one particularly wants to live with their parents especially when you couple up or have a child. - Why's it better for the economy for people to be on the property ladder? I'm just curious why you think this




    Well in social housing that IS how it's prioritised - single people over families? I think not , but a couple with a child aren't likely to be looking at a 1 bed anyway.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    neither are most FTBs.
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 16th Jun 17, 4:09 PM
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    LadyL2013
    neither are most FTBs.
    Originally posted by Guest101

    Well where else do you suppose people live if they can't afford to rent a place? Many choose to live with their parents rather than rent because renting means they are spending more and thus means they are likely to take longer to save for a mortgage. If you're not in a couple, you housing options are fairly limited in terms of a mortgage.


    If people have more disposable income (mortgage payments being cheaper than rental payments in many cases), then that money will be spent in businesses etc and that is beneficial to the economy. What isn't beneficial is people not being able to afford to buy anything because they are spending most of it on rent.


    No, I mean in social housing families will be placed above single people, that's done out of need, so it's not like it doesn't happen or isn't workable.


    Well then if an FTB is shooting above what they can afford and is too snobby to live in a 1 bed, then that's their fault, but many 2 bed properties are way beyond affordable where I'm from. It's one bed or nothing unless you are earning a substantial wage.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th Jun 17, 4:11 PM
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    AdrianC
    Well where else do you suppose people live if they can't afford to rent a place?
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    They can rent a room in a shared property.

    If they can't afford to rent a place, they certainly can't afford to own it.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 16th Jun 17, 4:18 PM
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    Guest101
    Well where else do you suppose people live if they can't afford to rent a place? - So you think they can afford to buy, but not to rent?? Many choose to live with their parents rather than rent because renting means they are spending more and thus means they are likely to take longer to save for a mortgage. - Yes I know, it's called growing up. If you're not in a couple, you housing options are fairly limited in terms of a mortgage. - but not it terms of renting. And most FTBs are couples


    If people have more disposable income (mortgage payments being cheaper than rental payments in many cases) - Not really, a rented room is cheaper than a mortgage , then that money will be spent in businesses etc - 'in business' ? that's your logic. Well letting property is a business, so they'd be spending a lot more by renting... and that is beneficial to the economy. What isn't beneficial is people not being able to afford to buy anything because they are spending most of it on rent. - But they're spending it 'in business' if they rent? <im confused again>


    No, I mean in social housing families will be placed above single people, that's done out of need, so it's not like it doesn't happen or isn't workable. - But families don't want 1 bedroom properties? That's what you said. I think most families would take that over the streets, but that's by the by.


    Well then if an FTB is shooting above what they can afford and is too snobby to live in a 1 bed, then that's their fault, but many 2 bed properties are way beyond affordable where I'm from. It's one bed or nothing unless you are earning a substantial wage.- whats a substantial wage?
    Originally posted by LadyL2013


    Can we go back to the criteria you mentioned?


    When would people have to sell to FTBs? What's a reasonable offer? - this was your policy, can you please expand?
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 16th Jun 17, 5:16 PM
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    Crashy Time
    They can rent a room in a shared property.

    If they can't afford to rent a place, they certainly can't afford to own it.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    I thought "owning" (monthly payments at the lowest rates since Fred Flintstone walked the earth) was supposed to be cheaper than renting, according to many a "Wise" Old Owl on here anyway...?
    • Mee
    • By Mee 16th Jun 17, 5:30 PM
    • 817 Posts
    • 844 Thanks
    Mee
    I don't hate landlords
    I dislike the commodification of housing and the fact that a 'home' is now merely 'bricks and mortar' to be sold to the highest bidder, to overseas investors in particular, and generally the whole 'buy-to-let' set-up.
    You can click the Thanks button if you want

    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 16th Jun 17, 11:13 PM
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    Cakeguts
    I think a lot of people don't realise that not all people rent because they have to. Quite a lot of people rent because that is what they choose to do at that time. There are people who need short term rented accommodation because they need to move for a job or because they can't live in their bought home for some reason. Those people do not want to live in social housing. Renting a house is a better option than living in a hotel. So who is supposed to supply this private rented housing for the people who want to rent but don't qualify for social housing? Who wouldn't want social housing even if they qualfied? It is all about choice. There is an assumption that people only rent if they have to. This isn't the case a lot of people rent because they want to.

    I would suggest that people have a look at the information about renting a National Trust property. It is quite easy to see that people rent because it suits them to do that then.
    Last edited by Cakeguts; 16-06-2017 at 11:16 PM.
    • gycraig
    • By gycraig 17th Jun 17, 12:33 AM
    • 326 Posts
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    gycraig
    They can rent a room in a shared property.

    If they can't afford to rent a place, they certainly can't afford to own it.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    My mortgage is 450 and a doctor has bought the house either side and is renting em out for 750 a month.

    Curious what I could need that would cost me an extra 3k a year every year to make it easier to rent than buy ?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Jun 17, 12:41 AM
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    AdrianC
    Just wait until mortgage interest rates rise.

    And the boiler dies.
    And the buildings insurance bill arrives.
    And the place needs redecorating and new windows and all the other maintenance.
    And the landlord has a void for a few months after a non-paying tenant is finally evicted following the court case.
    And the landlord does his tax return.
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 17th Jun 17, 8:07 AM
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    LadyL2013
    I think a lot of people don't realise that not all people rent because they have to. Quite a lot of people rent because that is what they choose to do at that time. There are people who need short term rented accommodation because they need to move for a job or because they can't live in their bought home for some reason. Those people do not want to live in social housing. Renting a house is a better option than living in a hotel. So who is supposed to supply this private rented housing for the people who want to rent but don't qualify for social housing? Who wouldn't want social housing even if they qualfied? It is all about choice. There is an assumption that people only rent if they have to. This isn't the case a lot of people rent because they want to.

    I would suggest that people have a look at the information about renting a National Trust property. It is quite easy to see that people rent because it suits them to do that then.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    Well quite, but no ones suggesting private rental property shouldn't be a thing, of course it should.
    • LadyL2013
    • By LadyL2013 17th Jun 17, 8:12 AM
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    LadyL2013
    My mortgage is 450 and a doctor has bought the house either side and is renting em out for 750 a month.

    Curious what I could need that would cost me an extra 3k a year every year to make it easier to rent than buy ?
    Originally posted by gycraig
    And it very much depends on where you live. Even renting a room is more expensive than a mortgage payment in some places. On Rightmove, in my area, right now renting a room, the cheapest I can find is £490pcm without bills and £500pcm with bills. So the £500pcm seems like a better deal, but is it really when you have a room, not an entire property and very little protection?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Jun 17, 8:41 AM
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    AdrianC
    Well quite, but no ones suggesting private rental property shouldn't be a thing, of course it should.
    Originally posted by LadyL2013
    <points back to post 62 in the thread>
    I do think there are people for whom renting is a better option, but I don't think private landlords should be the ones to benefit. Personally I think all rented housing should be council or HA owned rather than so many people having to gamble on individuals who range from fantastic to criminal.
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    ...and when that was questioned, post 70...
    Certainly all housing that is intended to be permanent, full time residences though, yes.
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
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