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  • FIRST POST
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 2:07 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Angrydanny
    PayPal scam warning
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 17, 2:07 AM
    PayPal scam warning 13th Jun 17 at 2:07 AM
    PayPal after 4 months of silence from a buyer have paid out £1,600 to the buyer who said he didn't receive the item. 4 months not a peep then a claim that the item hadn't been received and PayPal pay out £1600 of the sellers money. After that length of time there's a good chance the postal receipt has been binned. This is the scam and PayPal fall for it. It's so disappointing that an honest client is treated this way by PayPal who say after careful investigation they have decided in favour of the Chinese scam. Apparently PayPal accept a non receipt claim up until 6 months of the original sale and their investigation no postal receipt pay out. Outrageous
Page 1
    • challengedavid
    • By challengedavid 13th Jun 17, 7:37 AM
    • 136 Posts
    • 68 Thanks
    challengedavid
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:37 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:37 AM
    i always keep my receipts for at least two years to hopefully avoid this
    did you purchase the shipping through ebay as there might be some record of it there?
    • qsk
    • By qsk 13th Jun 17, 7:42 AM
    • 242 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    qsk
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:42 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 17, 7:42 AM
    It's so disappointing that an honest client is treated this way by PayPal who say after careful investigation they have decided in favour of the Chinese scam.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    I do not often hear "Chinese scam" as buyer. Did you actually send a £1600 item to China? How do you prove it was delivered?
    • soolin
    • By soolin 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    • 59,445 Posts
    • 42,162 Thanks
    soolin
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    PayPal after 4 months of silence from a buyer have paid out £1,600 to the buyer who said he didn't receive the item. 4 months not a peep then a claim that the item hadn't been received and PayPal pay out £1600 of the sellers money. After that length of time there's a good chance the postal receipt has been binned. This is the scam and PayPal fall for it. It's so disappointing that an honest client is treated this way by PayPal who say after careful investigation they have decided in favour of the Chinese scam. Apparently PayPal accept a non receipt claim up until 6 months of the original sale and their investigation no postal receipt pay out. Outrageous
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    Have a look at this thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3146680

    It explains all the requirements for protection against paypal claims.

    I realise it is probably too late, but in case you do come back and re post and you are in time, then you can appeal as long as you can show online tracking to the address given on paypal then if you are quick paypal *may* just consider an appeal.

    This is a hard scam now for buyers due to the fact that paypal are clear about the requirements. The easiest way to protect yourself long term is to add the tracking when you post the item , then if a claim is opened you have the tracking to hand. As above though always keep POPs for at least 180 days in case of a claim for fraudulent use of card.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 10:40 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Angrydanny
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:40 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:40 AM
    No, I used ebays shipping programme that same month which didn't end well. So I removed it for this sale. Thanks for the interesting answer.
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 10:46 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Angrydanny
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:46 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:46 AM
    Thank you for that, unfortunately I didn't use ebays tracking facility as I used next day guarantee post. I'm afraid everything the scammes hoped for happened with this transaction. Ebays and PayPal's protection umberellas look good until it starts raining.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 13th Jun 17, 10:51 AM
    • 59,445 Posts
    • 42,162 Thanks
    soolin
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:51 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:51 AM
    No, I used ebays shipping programme that same month which didn't end well. So I removed it for this sale. Thanks for the interesting answer.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    I'm not entirely sure I follow this? However, if you mean you bought postage via a PO or courier and not ebay then it doesn't matter, you were still covered with a tracking number. Do read the 1st bit of the thread I posted, it explains it all.

    Thank you for that, unfortunately I didn't use ebays tracking facility as I used next day guarantee post. I'm afraid everything the scammes hoped for happened with this transaction. Ebays and PayPal's protection umberellas look good until it starts raining.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    The seller protection is quite clear and when selling, specially high value items, it does pay to read your requirements. If you sent this tracked then you had a tracking number, and that was all you needed to prevent an INR claim, it is irrelevant where you bought your postage.

    Some of us on here have been selling for years and I suspect most of us have had to use seller protection on both ebay and paypal on more than one occasion. I have never lost an INR where I had a tracking number, nor have I ever lost a claim for fraudulent use of a card claim merely with proof of posting.

    However, if China was involved then I don't understand the bit about the Guaranteed next day delivery as I wasn't aware that such a service existed from UK to China?
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • lovinituk
    • By lovinituk 13th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    • 5,371 Posts
    • 6,038 Thanks
    lovinituk
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    This all a bit confusing. Did you send it to China? You can't do guaranteed next day from UK to China. Where are you based? What shipping company did you use?
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 10:58 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Angrydanny
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:58 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:58 AM
    No, the item was sent to London at the buyers request. It was delivered, there is no doubt even my postmaster remembers the item as he asked the value for insurance. Unfortunately the postal records only go back one month without a receipt number. I would have thought PayPal would have asked the postmaster and taken his word over the Chinese buyer/scammer after 4 months. I'm of the considered opinion that PayPal although a large global organisation do not have a security team which is fit for purpose or indeed conduct any serious investigations.
    • lovinituk
    • By lovinituk 13th Jun 17, 11:00 AM
    • 5,371 Posts
    • 6,038 Thanks
    lovinituk
    So you used next day special delivery which comes with a tracking number. It could have been easily avoided if you'd kept that tracking number.

    How do you know it was even delivered if you didn't check the tracking number? Why should PayPal take your word for it?
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 11:06 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Angrydanny
    Yes, I understand your confusion, to be clear the item was sent to London at the buyers request
    Then nothing for 4 months, postal receipt recently destroyed.
    • Angrydanny
    • By Angrydanny 13th Jun 17, 11:10 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Angrydanny
    Yes conversely why should PayPal take the buyers word for it. It would be interesting to know if you or anybody else would wait 4 months to report a non receipt item of that value.
    • lovinituk
    • By lovinituk 13th Jun 17, 11:19 AM
    • 5,371 Posts
    • 6,038 Thanks
    lovinituk
    Yes conversely why should PayPal take the buyers word for it. It would be interesting to know if you or anybody else would wait 4 months to report a non receipt item of that value.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    The burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer. Any court of law will tell you that.

    When you signed up to PayPal you agreed to their terms and conditions. Over a certain value (£750 I believe) you are required to produce tracking and a signature to defend an item not received case. If you had added the tracking number to the transaction right from the start you would have been defended automatically.

    Yes it's likely a scam buyer but it's not PayPal's responsibility to investigate in depth situations like this. Can you imagine how expensive their service would be if they had to employ teams of people to do that! Their T&Cs state that you need to prove delivery and if you can't, you lose.

    Unfortunate you have been very naive and learnt a very expensive lesson.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 13th Jun 17, 11:27 AM
    • 59,445 Posts
    • 42,162 Thanks
    soolin
    Yes conversely why should PayPal take the buyers word for it. It would be interesting to know if you or anybody else would wait 4 months to report a non receipt item of that value.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    Some people do , I've had claims against me at 4 months as well. No one needs take the buyers word for it, all the details for seller protection are available and show on every email that paypal send you.

    Yes, I understand your confusion, to be clear the item was sent to London at the buyers request
    Then nothing for 4 months, postal receipt recently destroyed.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    All you needed for an INR claim was to have added tracking when you sold it. Incidentally, if you sent it to London where does the Chinese bit come into this, I am slightly confused.

    Did you send it to the address that paypal stated was OK to send to?
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • soolin
    • By soolin 13th Jun 17, 11:30 AM
    • 59,445 Posts
    • 42,162 Thanks
    soolin
    Please do read the thread I posted, but also look at your paypal notifications, both the email you received and the payment details in your account. The one I have just got shows this:

    You received a payment of £8.99 GBP from xxxx Thanks for using PayPal. You can now send any items. To see all the transaction details, log in to your PayPal account.

    It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.
    This item is eligible for Seller Protection.
    Don't forget to:

    Send the item to the delivery address below within 7 days.
    Please note: items delivered in person or to a different address are not covered by Seller Protection.
    Use a trackable proof of delivery.

    Find out more about Seller Protection

    If you click on the link in your own emails seller protection is clearly outlined.

    In future add tracking when you post, it stops all this immediately - assuming item shows as delivered of course, although you do still need to keep the paperwork in case of a fraudulent use of card claim.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • TKPeters
    • By TKPeters 13th Jun 17, 11:37 AM
    • 1,819 Posts
    • 1,016 Thanks
    TKPeters
    I presume you never uploaded the tracking number to eBay or Paypal?

    All our Post Office receipts are kept in a box for at least 6 years, as we're VAT Reg'd & require proof of export

    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 13th Jun 17, 12:23 PM
    • 3,143 Posts
    • 1,809 Thanks
    ballisticbrian
    No, the item was sent to London at the buyers request. It was delivered, there is no doubt even my postmaster remembers the item as he asked the value for insurance.

    Two things here. Does "at the buyers request" mean they specifically sent you a message asking you to send it to an alternate address, because for a £1600 item that would have been a "no" and would have lost you your PayPal protection anyway.


    Secondly, you say "It was delivered, there is no doubt", how do you know this? You then said, "even my postmaster remembers the item", but this has nothing to do with it being delivered.
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 13th Jun 17, 12:31 PM
    • 32,680 Posts
    • 27,401 Thanks
    custardy
    Yes conversely why should PayPal take the buyers word for it. It would be interesting to know if you or anybody else would wait 4 months to report a non receipt item of that value.
    Originally posted by Angrydanny
    because they have proof they paid you,their side of the bargain.
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