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  • FIRST POST
    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 12th Jun 17, 11:45 AM
    • 7Posts
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    GazWeavs
    Appeal Advice Please
    • #1
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:45 AM
    Appeal Advice Please 12th Jun 17 at 11:45 AM
    Hi all, help needed please.
    Before anybody shoots me down can I say that parking in disabled bays is a moral no, no and I fully accept many will see my actions as 'self inflicted' but please hear me out.
    I parked in a disabled bay, in the absence of any waiting area, to simply drop a foster child off and sign a consent form for her to use the local gym. I stayed in the disabled bay for 3 minutes! There were a total of 6 disabled bays all of which were empty.
    For the privilege of my 3 minute stay, I received a £75 fine which has now increased to £160!
    The timeline of events are as detailed below:




    23rd March 17 – Parking charge received for parking in a disabled bay for 3 minutes. 6 disabled bays available, all empty. I arrived at 18:55hrs. Penalty notice applied at 18:56hrs. I returned to car at 18:58hrs. I simply had to go to reception with a foster child and sign a consent form. I had no wish to use the facilities or stay in the car park. There is no designated waiting area.





    28th March 17 – My employer receives a payment demand from DRP Ltd for the sum of £160! My vehicle is a company car and I am now under pressure from my employers to resolve this issue.





    31st March 17 - Hard copy letter sent to Corporate Services Hereford giving my personal details as the vehicle driver and asking for my questions to be considered and answered – No response.





    3rd April 17 – My employer receives an admin charge from the vehicle leasing company because DRP Ltd had contacted them for payment of £75.





    11th April 17 – Another payment demand sent to my employer from DRP Ltd for the sum of £160. I am now under serious pressure from my employers to resolve the issue. The letter is not addressed to me!





    26th April 17 – Another letter to my employers from DRP Ltd advising that their client, Corporate Services, had not received payment and that DRP Ltd had advised them court action to recover the outstanding amount should be taken. The letter is not addressed to me!





    5th May 17 – Email sent to Corporate Services Hereford with original letter attached asking for a response – No response.





    8th May 17 – Email sent to Debt Recovery Plus Ltd & Corporate Services Hereford (copy to POPLA complaints) again asking for a response to my original letter and asking that DRP Ltd refrain from sending payment demands to my employer as I had continually advised that I was the vehicle driver and my details were as per my original letter – No response.





    24th May 17 – Email from DRP Ltd asking me to confirm my personal details (which I had already given several times) and advising that the ‘account’ was being put on hold until 07/06/17 “to allow time for the required action to be taken”?





    24th may 17 – Email sent to DRP Ltd to confirm my personal details once again!





    26th May 17 – Hard copy letter received to my home address from Corporate Services Hereford demanding payment of £75 despite all of the above!





    31st May 17 – Email sent to Corporate Services Hereford and DRP Ltd asking for a response to my original communication of 31st March 17.





    2ns June 17 – Email and hard copy letter to my home address received from Corporate Services as follows:





    We write further to your email of the 31st May 2017


    The matter has been passed to me to investigate.


    Firstly, I apologise that your appeal does not appear to have been handled to the standards we would normally expect.


    Accordingly, I have advised DRP to cease collection on the matter to enable your appeal to be processed.


    I have reviewed the matter and the circumstances arising when the parking charge notice was issued. Your vehicle was observed in a disabled bay without clearly displaying a valid disabled persons badge identifying it as authorised to do so. As a valid badge was not displayed we uphold our operatives decision. I note your comments relating to the times of your visit, however a fifteen minute period is allowed in any of the spaces in the car park to facilitate the safe drop off and collection of children at the centre. Parking bays which are identified for holders of valid disabled persons badges are closely monitored to ensure that they are only used by drivers who are authorised to do so. Our records therefore show that the notice was correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking.


    We are therefore unable to cancel the Parking Charge Notice as it was issued correctly. Please now make payment of £75 to reach us by 30/06/2017. We must advise you that once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be offered again.


    I have been given a POPLA code to appeal this decision so my question is, do I have any chance of being successful or do I just pay up?
    I will also add that the night in question was obviously during winter and thus dark and signage was not evident upon my arrival regarding the car park rules etc. I do intend to gather photographic evidence to submit to POPLA if this will help?
    Any advice regarding this issue is truly appreciated especially on appeal templates and points to possibly argue etc.


    Many thanks,
    Gaz
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Jun 17, 11:51 AM
    • 2,063 Posts
    • 2,475 Thanks
    waamo
    • #2
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:51 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:51 AM
    As you have a POPLA code you should use it. At the top of this forum is a thread that tells Newbies to read it first. In there, if you look carefully, templates for appeals can be found.

    You need the blue BPA template.
    This space for hire.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jun 17, 11:54 AM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:54 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:54 AM
    even if you lost at POPLA there is no obligation on you to pay unless the PPC issue an MCOL and take you to court, and you lost in court

    at that point a judge would deem that you should pay

    if you were only there a few minutes then clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies, so I would use post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and appeal on several legal arguments, with clause #13 , GRACE PERIODS being number 1) or 2) (as well as no landowner authority, poor and inadequate signage etc)

    bear in mind that the grace period is split , and so could be 5 or 10 minutes to read signage and leave , plus over 10 minutes to leave

    so 3 minutes is well within the first part alone
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jun 17, 12:43 PM
    • 14,979 Posts
    • 23,530 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 12th Jun 17, 12:43 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jun 17, 12:43 PM
    Corporate Services Hereford have 'previous' for not following the correct procedure. In addition to the above advice you need to putting in a complaint to the BPA that your option to appeal this to POPLA has been denied you because they have, once again, failed to follow due process.

    Here's another case - add this link into your complaint.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5659504&highlight=corporate+servi ces
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 12th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    grace periods explanations and results here

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5637392

    and here

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5644298

    plenty more examples on the forum too

    plus other arguments are used at popla , such as

    NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY
    POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
    BPA CoP failures
    NTK failures
    POFA2012 failures

    etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 12th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    • #6
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    Thanks for this info Redx but can I ask this?
    The PPC reason for allowing the fine is that I used a disabled parking space, nothing else. So will the grace period argument be accepted? Are disabled bays legally enforceable in private car parks?


    As you can appreciate, I am so damn annoyed at receiving this 'fine' for a 3 minute stay and I want to ensure that my appeal to POPLA has enough legal or technical standing to win and the more I read the Newbies threads the more I seem to be getting confused!


    Many thanks,
    Gaz
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 12th Jun 17, 4:40 PM
    • 7,662 Posts
    • 7,745 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #7
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:40 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:40 PM
    The PPC reason for allowing the fine is that I used a disabled parking space, nothing else. So will the grace period argument be accepted? Are disabled bays legally enforceable in private car parks?
    Originally posted by GazWeavs
    Its not any kind of fine and disabled bays have no legal standing in any private car park in England and Wales.
    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 12th Jun 17, 4:49 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    • #8
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:49 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:49 PM
    pogofish, I use the word 'fine' in the loosest of terms of course and understand it isn't and simply a speculative invoice.
    So could I state in my POPLA appeal that the disabled bay excuse used by the PPC is flawed and then simply argue clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies?


    So grateful for the help received by all so far


    Gaz
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jun 17, 5:08 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 12th Jun 17, 5:08 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Jun 17, 5:08 PM
    you should refrain from dealing with any issues over the disabled bay because you are not disabled , so any argument does not apply

    those bays are provided under legislation for any person who qualifies under the EA2010 (LEGISLATION) - like me for example (and prior to 2010 it was under the DDA1995 and DDA2005 amendment)

    the blue badge has no relevance legally

    operators and landholders have a legal obligation to both provide them and to keep them free for any person who qualifies under the EA2010 , hence why the ticket was issued (the only real issue here was if the car had remained there for over 10 minutes or so (like on public roads - ie:- 10 minutes observation time , to comply or leave)

    the BPA CoP and the IPC CoP mention this requirement , warning members that they could face legal action if they fail to meet their legal obligations

    this is why the PPC,s ticket vehicles parked there , because they are legally obliged to and its in their CoP too, although they wrongly use the blue badge as the decision maker, whereas some people who dont have a BB are entitled to park there under the EA2010 , because its the EA2010 that applies, not just owning a blue badge

    so the fact is that you have no legal argument or legal defence in parking there, so dont open that door , you admitted in post #1 it was wrong, so I agree

    I did not take you to task over this because you admitted it was wrong and asked people not to comment

    so my reply above is because you have asked ME to comment, so I have done so dont shoot the messenger !! , also because I am fully aware of these issues because I do qualify under the EA2010 as I have a long term documented and qualifying illness

    any appeals should be done on the usual arguments, in this case GRACE PERIODS is the main argument , but other ones also apply, like poor signage , no landowner authority etc

    stick to those in your appeal, forget about it even being a BB bay

    BPA CoP guidance

    16 Disabled motorists
    16.1 The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove barriers which may discriminate against disabled people.

    16.2 ‘Reasonable adjustments’ to prevent discrimination are likely to include larger ‘disabled’ parking spaces near to the entrance or amenities for disabled people whose mobility is impaired. It also could include lowered payment machines and other ways to pay if payment is required: for example, paying by phone. You and your staff also need to realise that some disabled people may take a long time to get to the payment machine.

    16.3 Operators of off-street car parks do not have to recognise the Blue Badge scheme. But many choose to do so to meet their obligations under the Equality Act. Although a Blue Badge is not issued to all disabled people it is issued to those with mobility problems. So it is a good way for parking operators to identify people who need special parking provision.

    16.4 You are at risk of a claim under the Equality Act if you do not discourage abuse of the ‘disabled’ spaces. This means that you need to make sure the spaces are regularly checked to be sure they are not being used by people who do not have a disability.
    Last edited by Redx; 12-06-2017 at 5:23 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 17, 7:15 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    pogofish, I use the word 'fine' in the loosest of terms of course and understand it isn't and simply a speculative invoice.
    So could I state in my POPLA appeal that the disabled bay excuse used by the PPC is flawed and then simply argue clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies?
    Originally posted by GazWeavs
    No. They do not have to allow a grace period in that bay. But you appear to think, ''no POPLA'' (or losing at POPLA) means you have to pay! NOPE.

    Just do the usual long POPLA appeal about the disabled bay not being clearly signed, no contract formed, and no landowner authority. Using the templates in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread, about signage and about landowner authority.

    You've blown you best appeal point because you said you were driving.

    You should have said you were the lessee/hirer, which is what the NEWBIES thread tells ALL company car drivers to say when appealing. You could then have won easily, using the POFA 2012 and the fact they failed to send you a Notice to Hirer and the required documents set out in para 13/14 of Schedule 4. Game over for them. You would have had 100% win at POPLA. A driver cannot argue that.

    But you still have a solid chance at POPLA just by talking about unclear signage and landowner authority, adapting the long templates from the NEWBIES thread and adding something specific about this disabled bay.

    Don't tell us it was clearly signed. I am going to suggest that you could not read about £100 from that bay. I bet it had a short vague sign and nothing about £100 contract within view.

    And no, I'm not supporting the way you parked. Never do that!

    And nor are any of us saying you need to pay these chancers, whether you win at POPLA or not.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-06-2017 at 7:17 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 13th Jun 17, 8:49 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    Thanks everyone for the advice so far.


    I would just like to reiterate that I completely agree with the provision of parking bays for the disabled in ANY car park and that these bays should not be abused by able bodied drivers like me. I have 2 disabled children myself and qualify for a BB but we surrendered ours some years ago as we felt because our kids are somewhat mobile, it was unfair to use the system and it is better suited to less able bodied and less mobile folk but that's another debate for another day!


    I understand that I can basically appeal on 3 points:
    Grace period.
    Signage.
    Landowner authority.


    I will search the Newbies threads for ideas on how to best present my case to POPLA and as stated, I am grateful for the advice given so far by all.


    Gaz
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Jun 17, 9:06 AM
    • 40,419 Posts
    • 80,738 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I don't think grace periods will get you anywhere as already suggested.

    Template PoPLA appeal points can be found in post 3 f the NEWBIES.

    You should go back to the car park and take photos of the entrance and signage from the point of view of a driver.
    Is it possible to approach from a particular direction where the signs can't be seen, or obscured, or can't be read?
    Is it possible to drive through the car park to the disabled bays in such a way that the driver could miss or not be able to read the signs?
    Could disabled signs clearly be seen from the driver's seat? Were they obscured by a door pillar? Quite often the signs are sporadic so there are gaps and they are not immediately visible until perhaps you returned to the car.
    Photos showing how you could have missed signs, or showing them high up on poles or obscured by bushes, or the use of tiny font will all help your case.
    The long Inadequate Signage template appeal point from the NEWBIES will help you with this. Just embed your own photos in it to emphasize your point.

    I can't condone your use of a disabled bay but you have put your hand up so fair play for that. You have beaten yourself up about it enough yourself without us adding to your misery. Like most of the regulars here, I certainly cannot condone the actions of the parking scammers who make misery for millions of motorists every year which is why you are being helped.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 13-06-2017 at 9:12 AM.
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    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 13th Jun 17, 9:57 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    Thanks for this Fruitcake.
    The car park in question has only one way in and one driving direction once in so I intend to get photographs to hopefully help my case as the signs are in my opinion inadequate and certainly not visible to drivers going into the car park and indeed certainly not sufficient to be able to form any contract on my part. This coupled with the fact that it was a dark winters evening also makes the visibility of any signage even more difficult and questionable.
    I am not going to argue the point on signage of disabled bays as they are clearly marked on the ground with the standard yellow paint etc. I made a conscious decision to use one, albeit for 3 minutes, I still used one so I will not defend this point. I just think the punishment doesn't fit the crime but of course that's a matter of opinion.


    Thanks all,
    Gaz
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 6:01 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I intend to get photographs to hopefully help my case as the signs are in my opinion inadequate and certainly not visible to drivers going into the car park and indeed certainly not sufficient to be able to form any contract on my part. This coupled with the fact that it was a dark winters evening also makes the visibility of any signage even more difficult and questionable.
    Now you are talking!

    I am not going to argue the point on signage of disabled bays as they are clearly marked on the ground with the standard yellow paint etc.
    That is laudable but wrong, there is more to a disabled bay than yellow paint, and MUCH more to a contract. The bays require a sign within visibility, which has the £100 readably on it. Otherwise a driver has not agreed to pay £100, and may well not know about that charge.

    Was the child with you, a child with any mobility/medical problem (regardless of Blue Badge)?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 13th Jun 17, 7:11 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    Unfortunately neither of my children with disabilities was with me but the disabled bays only have signs high on the building stating disabled parking only. I add that the bay I parked in closest to the entrance had no sign in front of it all all and I have photographs taken today showing this.
    There are only 2 tariff/information boards in the car park next to the payment meters, neither of which I actually drove by on entering and parking, again which I have pictures of. I'm not sure on the legality of these boards regards to letter sizing etc?
    It's a shame I can't upload the pics to show my points but I'm sure you get the drift.

    Thanks,
    Gaz
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jun 17, 7:49 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    use tinypic or photobucket to host your pics , then copy and paste the url,s but also change the http to hxxp to make them "dead links"

    disabled bays should have a sign , usually at the front of the bay at a reasonable height (usually less than 2 metres high) that can be read inside the vehicle and also mention any "penalty" to people who are not disabled (lord dennings red hand rule in play)

    high up on a wall and not visible from the bay does not constitute compliance , so as CM says there is more to this than paying lip service

    these companies and landholders rarely update the signage to account for changes in law
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 8:21 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I add that the bay I parked in closest to the entrance had no sign in front of it all all and I have photographs taken today showing this.
    Good, so at no point did you read a single word about a contract to pay £100.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GazWeavs
    • By GazWeavs 13th Jun 17, 9:46 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GazWeavs
    Redx, I will try to upload the pics as you suggest when I am at work tomorrow as they are now on my work PC.

    CM, no absolutely no 'penalty' information anywhere in the area of these bays let alone infront to be seen by a driver. Just the wording as already stated saying 'disabled parking only' about 2.5mtrs up on the building but not in front of the bay I used.

    Gaz
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