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  • FIRST POST
    • strothel
    • By strothel 11th Jun 17, 1:35 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 1Thanks
    strothel
    Private parking ticket when my permit fell off - advice please!
    • #1
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:35 PM
    Private parking ticket when my permit fell off - advice please! 11th Jun 17 at 1:35 PM
    Hello!

    I have read the guides and advice on here but would also like to know if that would apply to my situation.

    I live in a block of flats where we have all been given visitor parking permits. We are not supposed to but most residents use these for their own car as the garages are so small our cars dont fit in. My parking permit fell onto the passenger seat while driving and hence I was issued a ticket.

    This is the second time it has happened (I know I should have stuck it on the windscreen after the first time :-P). Last time I appealed with the company (a BPA member) by sending them a photo of my parking permit. They declined the appeal by saying the rules state my permit needed to be clearly displayed at the time and said I would not be able to appeal it further.

    I have looked at the template for appealing BPA member fines which includes something about signing being unclear. The signage in our building is quite clear - should I still include that paragraph? And should I include a paragraph about being entitled to park there as I had a visitor permit and attach a photo? (I don't think they know that I'm a resident and not an actual visitor- but if it were to go to court, there would be documents stating that the permits are for visitors not residents so I probably would lose).

    Thanks in advance for your help!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • 13,102 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    Just use the basic initial appeal template in the newbies sticky. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, and with statements like:
    The signage in our building is quite clear - should I still include that paragraph?
    ......... you clearly don't (sorry, not being harsh), you use it 'as is', no additions, no subtractions, no edits - as is!

    You send it as per the timing in the sticky, and by the method required by the PPC (beware of any drop down boxes if doing online which default to 'I am the driver').

    You haven't told us who the PPC is - knowing that will help us give you more targeted advice and a 'prognosis'.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • angryparcel
    • By angryparcel 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    • 749 Posts
    • 405 Thanks
    angryparcel
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    I live in a block of flats where we have all been given visitor parking permits. We are not supposed to but most residents use these for their own car
    Originally posted by strothel
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    • 3,585 Posts
    • 5,076 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    Why have you been given permits?
    why are you displaying permits?
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    that is all irrelevant, they key is the lease/rental agreements any permit scheme introduced by a third party can not override any pre existing rights
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
    • 13,102 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    Originally posted by angryparcel
    Might 'end up with a ticket', but they won't be paying it. Legal issues like 'primacy of contract' and 'peaceful and quiet enjoyment of their property and surrounds' far outgun any generic parking 'contract' sign cable-tied to fencing and lampposts in a residential area by unscrupulous, frequently ex-clamping outfits, sometimes working out of a garden shed of their 2-bed terrace in some rundown area of a town many miles away.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    • 39,203 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    As above, everything depends on what the lease/AST says, or doesn't say about parking. This will have primacy of contract. If there is no mention of a permit scheme, or mention of parking charges, then a third party, (the parking scammers,) cannot add anything to an existing contract (lease/AST.)

    Have a read here about judges who have thrown out residential cases exactly like this where the parking scammers had no business charging for something already granted to a resident.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    You should quote these cases by carefully adding them to your initial appeal in such a way as to not divulge the driver's identity.

    edit, Umkomaas beat me to that link.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    • 46,836 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    Originally posted by angryparcel
    Who cares? It's a scam. A resident almost always has primacy of contract and no reason to comply with a money-making con.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    Thanks all for your replies. So a few more details:

    The company is Private Parking Solutions (London).
    I took a look at my tenancy agreement and there is nothing in there about parking at all...nothing to say that I am or aren't entitled to park in the residents car park.
    However, every year all tenants are issued with a letter from the managing agent of the flats giving us a new permit and stating that the permits are visitors permits and not to be used by residents as we should be using our garage. I'm guessing this letter counts as a 'contract'?

    So, if I understand correctly, I can risk it and appeal, hoping that they drop the case. But if they do take it to court, I might lose and will then have to pay court fees too..?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • 46,836 Posts
    • 60,151 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    We have not seen any poster here lose in 2016/17 that I can recall, when they have had forum advice on their defence and later, witness statement/evidence. An we help with dozens of small claim defence cases every month.

    If you were the losing party you'd be told to pay about £150 altogether, no CCJ, no effect on credit rating.

    However, every year all tenants are issued with a letter from the managing agent of the flats giving us a new permit and stating that the permits are visitors permits and not to be used by residents as we should be using our garage. I'm guessing this letter counts as a 'contract'?
    Not a contract to pay £100 - unless it mentions that risk/obligation and that sum, or specifically says that the signs on site form part of the contract. It's no good saying 'here's the new permit, display it' then alleging that is an acceptance to pay a sum of money not stated.

    Does your tenancy pre-date the useless parking regime?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 15th Jun 17, 9:35 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    Thanks Coupon-mad.

    We have to sign a new tenancy agreement every year.. the last one was signed in Nov 2016 and I believe the letter about parking from the Managing agent came in March 2017 so yes, it does predate it.

    Alright - thanks for your advice - I'm going to appeal and not pay the fine this time :-P
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 17, 9:38 PM
    • 46,836 Posts
    • 60,151 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    BPA members are mostly easy to beat. No saying who was driving.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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