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  • FIRST POST
    • strothel
    • By strothel 11th Jun 17, 1:35 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 1Thanks
    strothel
    Private parking ticket when my permit fell off - advice please!
    • #1
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:35 PM
    Private parking ticket when my permit fell off - advice please! 11th Jun 17 at 1:35 PM
    Hello!

    I have read the guides and advice on here but would also like to know if that would apply to my situation.

    I live in a block of flats where we have all been given visitor parking permits. We are not supposed to but most residents use these for their own car as the garages are so small our cars dont fit in. My parking permit fell onto the passenger seat while driving and hence I was issued a ticket.

    This is the second time it has happened (I know I should have stuck it on the windscreen after the first time :-P). Last time I appealed with the company (a BPA member) by sending them a photo of my parking permit. They declined the appeal by saying the rules state my permit needed to be clearly displayed at the time and said I would not be able to appeal it further.

    I have looked at the template for appealing BPA member fines which includes something about signing being unclear. The signage in our building is quite clear - should I still include that paragraph? And should I include a paragraph about being entitled to park there as I had a visitor permit and attach a photo? (I don't think they know that I'm a resident and not an actual visitor- but if it were to go to court, there would be documents stating that the permits are for visitors not residents so I probably would lose).

    Thanks in advance for your help!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    Just use the basic initial appeal template in the newbies sticky. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, and with statements like:
    The signage in our building is quite clear - should I still include that paragraph?
    ......... you clearly don't (sorry, not being harsh), you use it 'as is', no additions, no subtractions, no edits - as is!

    You send it as per the timing in the sticky, and by the method required by the PPC (beware of any drop down boxes if doing online which default to 'I am the driver').

    You haven't told us who the PPC is - knowing that will help us give you more targeted advice and a 'prognosis'.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • angryparcel
    • By angryparcel 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    • 910 Posts
    • 520 Thanks
    angryparcel
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 1:54 PM
    I live in a block of flats where we have all been given visitor parking permits. We are not supposed to but most residents use these for their own car
    Originally posted by strothel
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    • 3,872 Posts
    • 5,455 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    Why have you been given permits?
    why are you displaying permits?
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    that is all irrelevant, they key is the lease/rental agreements any permit scheme introduced by a third party can not override any pre existing rights
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:21 PM
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    Originally posted by angryparcel
    Might 'end up with a ticket', but they won't be paying it. Legal issues like 'primacy of contract' and 'peaceful and quiet enjoyment of their property and surrounds' far outgun any generic parking 'contract' sign cable-tied to fencing and lampposts in a residential area by unscrupulous, frequently ex-clamping outfits, sometimes working out of a garden shed of their 2-bed terrace in some rundown area of a town many miles away.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    • 40,512 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 2:26 PM
    As above, everything depends on what the lease/AST says, or doesn't say about parking. This will have primacy of contract. If there is no mention of a permit scheme, or mention of parking charges, then a third party, (the parking scammers,) cannot add anything to an existing contract (lease/AST.)

    Have a read here about judges who have thrown out residential cases exactly like this where the parking scammers had no business charging for something already granted to a resident.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    You should quote these cases by carefully adding them to your initial appeal in such a way as to not divulge the driver's identity.

    edit, Umkomaas beat me to that link.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
    This could be an issue, if you are not suppose to use them , then that is a breach of their conditions, so even having them displayed could still end up with a ticket
    Originally posted by angryparcel
    Who cares? It's a scam. A resident almost always has primacy of contract and no reason to comply with a money-making con.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:50 PM
    Thanks all for your replies. So a few more details:

    The company is Private Parking Solutions (London).
    I took a look at my tenancy agreement and there is nothing in there about parking at all...nothing to say that I am or aren't entitled to park in the residents car park.
    However, every year all tenants are issued with a letter from the managing agent of the flats giving us a new permit and stating that the permits are visitors permits and not to be used by residents as we should be using our garage. I'm guessing this letter counts as a 'contract'?

    So, if I understand correctly, I can risk it and appeal, hoping that they drop the case. But if they do take it to court, I might lose and will then have to pay court fees too..?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    We have not seen any poster here lose in 2016/17 that I can recall, when they have had forum advice on their defence and later, witness statement/evidence. An we help with dozens of small claim defence cases every month.

    If you were the losing party you'd be told to pay about £150 altogether, no CCJ, no effect on credit rating.

    However, every year all tenants are issued with a letter from the managing agent of the flats giving us a new permit and stating that the permits are visitors permits and not to be used by residents as we should be using our garage. I'm guessing this letter counts as a 'contract'?
    Not a contract to pay £100 - unless it mentions that risk/obligation and that sum, or specifically says that the signs on site form part of the contract. It's no good saying 'here's the new permit, display it' then alleging that is an acceptance to pay a sum of money not stated.

    Does your tenancy pre-date the useless parking regime?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 15th Jun 17, 9:35 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    Thanks Coupon-mad.

    We have to sign a new tenancy agreement every year.. the last one was signed in Nov 2016 and I believe the letter about parking from the Managing agent came in March 2017 so yes, it does predate it.

    Alright - thanks for your advice - I'm going to appeal and not pay the fine this time :-P
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 17, 9:38 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
    • 65,328 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    BPA members are mostly easy to beat. No saying who was driving.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 16th Jul 17, 10:25 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    Next steps?
    Hi All

    I've had the following reply to my appeal to the PPC by email:
    BPA Code of Practice, Section 20.8 states: "If you have issued a parking charge notice to a driver in your car park but had no response,
    you may wish to take the next step to recover the charge."
    Section 20.10 explains: "In either case, you will need to try to
    identify who was driving the vehicle and make contact with them. You do
    this by first seeking the keeper details from the DVLA. Having received
    the keeper details from the DVLA you will need to issue a ‘Notice to
    Keeper’."
    Notice to Keeper means a notice, addressed to the registered keeper of a
    vehicle, which meets the conditions in the Protection of Freedoms Act
    2012, Schedule 4, paragraphs 8 or 9. A Notice to Keeper can be given
    either as the first step in recovering a parking charge, or as the
    second step after giving a Notice to Driver. A Notice to Keeper must be
    given if an operator wants to recover parking charges from the keeper.
    Within Section 20.1, it states: "When a vehicle is parked in a private
    car park, the normal rule is that the driver is responsible for paying
    the tariff fee (if any) for parking, for following the terms and
    conditions which apply, and for paying any parking charges. Because of
    the difficulties of identifying who drivers are and where they live, the
    law in England and Wales now allows car park owners and operators to
    recover unpaid parking charges from registered vehicle keepers, or,
    where relevant, from vehicle hirers."

    As you do not wish to give the name and current address for service for
    the driver, under the Code, we are able to pursue the registered keeper
    for the unpaid parking charge.


    This was followed up a few days later with a letter stating that they have requested my details from the DVLA as the registered keeper of the vehicle through the reasonable cause criteria. They then requested payment in full or the case will be passed to a debt recovery agent which may escalate to court proceedings.

    So I'm not sure if this letter is a 'notice to keeper'? and I havent received a POPLA code..so what's the next step?

    Thanks for your help!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Jul 17, 10:50 AM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,609 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So I'm not sure if this letter is a 'notice to keeper'? and I havent received a POPLA code..so what's the next step?
    Did you use the blue text template from the NEWBIES sticky?

    If so, complain to the BPA and DVLA.

    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA can be emailed to:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    or (if posting)

    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN

    and DVLA:

    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 16-07-2017 at 10:52 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 17, 5:51 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
    • 65,328 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, complain that you have not had a POPLA code, unless that reply does provide it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 20th Jul 17, 11:13 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    Thanks, yes I did copy and paste the template in my appeal and no I havent received the POPLA code.

    So I have drafted the letter to the DVLA is this OK?
    Dear Customer Complaint Resolution Team
    The DVLA will or may have already received a data request from Private Parking Solutions London. As the keeper of the vehicle I appealed a parking ticket received by them within the necessary timeframe and they did not supply me with a ‘Parking on Private Land Appeals’ (POPLA) Code. Failing to supply this code breaches the British Parking Association Code of Practice and therefore breaches the ‘Keeper of a vehicle at date of event’ (KADOE) contract to get DVLA data.
    I have escalated this matter to the CCR team because I have no confidence in the data release team to take such a complaint seriously as it's in the public domain that they have dismissed these issues far too many times recently without so much as even supplying a copy of the DVLA complaints procedure leaflet. If my complaint is not resolved properly I intend to involve my MP and refer the issue to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.


    What exactly would be my complaint to the BPA? Just that I appealed and didnt received a POPLA code?

    Many thanks for your assistance!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jul 17, 11:36 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
    • 65,328 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    What exactly would be my complaint to the BPA? Just that I appealed and didnt received a POPLA code?
    And what you did about it to chase it up, and attach proof. NOT saying who was driving...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 24th Jul 17, 8:20 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    OK thanks...but surely I dont want to remind the PPC until day 56 has passed? Wouldnt prompting them to send me a POPLA number not also prompt them to send me a NTK? Which I wouldnt really want to do based on what it says in the newbie stickie post?

    very fact a PPC then forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA stage.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Jul 17, 10:26 PM
    • 51,673 Posts
    • 65,328 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes you could wait till day 55 which would be safe.

    I assumed you were already past that, seeing as our advice clearly tells appellants to wait 26 days first, following a windscreen PCN, then if you add 35 to that you are there already.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • strothel
    • By strothel 11th Oct 17, 10:24 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    Update
    So I complained to the DVLA and received a response that basically said, your PPC is registered with the BPA so we gave them the info, it's not our responsibility to decide on the merits of individual cases.

    After requesting my POPLA code 3 times from the PPC and receiving no response I complained to the BPA who have now opened an official complaint. Obviously they contacted the PPC as the very next day the PPC replied to me showing that the code was given to me when I very first appealed but it was hidden in an attachment and not in the main body of the email in which they responded to me. I find this very devious! And now they are saying that I cannot appeal as it's too late.

    I'm now receiving debt collection letters and threats of court.

    Oh and in all this time I have still not received an official notice to keeper.

    Any thoughts on next steps? Appeal to POPLA anyway stating that the PPC mislead me in thinking I had not received the Code hence the late application date? (Basing the appeal on no notice to keeper). Wait till I receive official notification of the outcome of my complaint from the BPA?

    I'm due to give birth any day now so want to get something drafted now as soon I will have no spare time!

    Thanks!
    • strothel
    • By strothel 12th Oct 17, 8:34 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    strothel
    I just got an email from BPA today and as predicted they said that the PPC was able to show to them that they did provide me with a POPLA code. (Obviously they must not have said we hid it in an attachment and when she requested it 3 more times, we just ignored her!) So the BPA pretty much said they aren't getting involved as because the PPC didnt send it recorded delivery there is no way of knowing if I did or didnt receive it.

    I guess I'll just try my luck with POPLA?
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