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  • FIRST POST
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 7:27 AM
    • 318Posts
    • 289Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    Brother has registered what was a joint power of attorney in his sole name
    • #1
    • 11th Jun 17, 7:27 AM
    Brother has registered what was a joint power of attorney in his sole name 11th Jun 17 at 7:27 AM
    My mother is 88 and in a care home, basically very frail and forgetful , but not with a formal dementia diagnosis. However she isn't really capable of making some decisions .Mum self funds her care using her income and a little capital each month.

    I am one of two children, and when trying to help her recently with an insurance matter discovered and was shocked and upset to find that my brother had registered the power of attorney she wrote years ago appointing us both in his sole name .

    He won't reply to emails I've sent him asking about it, and I did actually say I object to what he's done. This is for multiple reasons including just wanting to help look after my mum.

    I've checked and see he should have notified me in writing that he intended this course if action, and a lawyer friend of mine questioned how on earth he managed it given that I am named on the original document.

    Friends of mine have suggested that if I report this to the office of the public guardian or get a solicitor to write, that it will cause a rift in the family but he's already done this surely?

    Does anyone know what I could do? Thank you
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
Page 1
    • meer53
    • By meer53 11th Jun 17, 9:39 AM
    • 8,785 Posts
    • 12,758 Thanks
    meer53
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:39 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:39 AM
    Get legal advice.
    • martinthebandit
    • By martinthebandit 11th Jun 17, 9:44 AM
    • 3,207 Posts
    • 5,444 Thanks
    martinthebandit
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:44 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:44 AM
    Have you any reason to think that your brother won't manage your fathers affairs properly?

    ........and does your brother have any reason to think you wouldn't?
    Politics -
    from the words Poli, meaning many
    and tics meaning blood sucking parasites


    (thanks to Kinky Friedman (or Larry Hardman) for the quote}
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 9:47 AM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:47 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:47 AM
    My brother spends most of his time in the USA where he works. I don't think he can stay on top of her practical needs basically , otherwise no we are both in professional jobs and both able to do this. But I'd rather it was collaborative rather than him just taking over if I'm honest
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • RADDERS
    • By RADDERS 11th Jun 17, 9:51 AM
    • 138 Posts
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    RADDERS
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:51 AM
    • #5
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:51 AM
    Was the POA set up as joint to make decisions or that you could individually make the decisions.
    I know that when we set up my parents POA it was set up as both my sister and I as attorneys but only one was needed to action any decisions. When it was needed to be used I was the only one who registered it as my sister was only on as reserve and did not want to do the official side of things she was quite happy for me to do this, but she did trust me to do the right thing. But if I had been incapacitated or if something had happened to me she would have stepped in.
    Do you not trust your brother is this the problem ?
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 10:15 AM
    • 318 Posts
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    cheesedoffwithdebt
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:15 AM
    • #6
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:15 AM
    As I've said. I'd like the situation to be collaborative and also have the ability to help mum with the stuff she needs. I don't trust the financial advisor that mum uses, and my brother doesn't have the right level of knowledge to know he's not quite trustworthy.

    But going back to the poa the guidelines are that Someone wishing to register it must notify all the family in writing before doing so.

    My brother had no basis in law to take that action and I'm distrusting now of his motivations yes, because he has been underhand. But I'm stuck because taking any action will make family relationships even more difficult
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 10:31 AM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:31 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:31 AM
    If it's not that clear/ if my mother set up an EPA for both my brother and I to act, he cannot go and register it in his sole name .
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • RADDERS
    • By RADDERS 11th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    • 138 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    RADDERS
    • #8
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    • #8
    • 11th Jun 17, 10:52 AM
    If it's not that clear/ if my mother set up an EPA for both my brother and I to act, he cannot go and register it in his sole name .
    Originally posted by cheesedoffwithdebt
    It will say on the POA how the attorneys can act either jointly and severally or jointly, if it is the former then as far as I am aware then the company could accept this without any other action needed and let your brother do what is needed.
    When I went into the banks with my mum and dads there was no mention of my sister by them as it said jointly and severally.
    I have actually just checked my own POA for the exact wording.
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 11:07 AM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 11:07 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 11:07 AM
    Please read this:

    https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties/register-an-enduring-power-of-attorney

    There is a whole section on notifying others of an intention to register poa, that's notwithstanding the joint or joint and several issue which applies to the administration of the affairs of the Donor.
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 11:28 AM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    Registration is with the office of the public guardian not a " company "
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 11th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    • 3,450 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    Most POAs are set up so that the attorneys can operate jointly and separately and it sounds like this is the case here. The option to operate jointly only is not a good idea, as should one of your attorneys predecease you to lose the ability to act will cause the POA to fail.

    There is nothing stopplng you doing the same as your brother so that you at least have the visibility to see what is going on.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 11th Jun 17, 12:11 PM
    • 28,005 Posts
    • 71,201 Thanks
    Mojisola
    My mother is 88 and in a care home, basically very frail and forgetful

    However she isn't really capable of making some decisions.

    my brother had registered the power of attorney she wrote years ago appointing us both in his sole name.

    He won't reply to emails I've sent him asking about it
    Originally posted by cheesedoffwithdebt
    My brother spends most of his time in the USA where he works. I don't think he can stay on top of her practical needs basically
    Originally posted by cheesedoffwithdebt
    But I'm stuck because taking any action will make family relationships even more difficult
    Originally posted by cheesedoffwithdebt
    How could things get more difficult?

    He seems to have registered a joint POA in his name alone.

    He's not on hand to deal with your mother's day-to-day needs.

    He isn't replying to your emails.

    You are on hand and believe you could manage her affairs better.

    Act in her best interests.
    • tooldle
    • By tooldle 11th Jun 17, 1:36 PM
    • 266 Posts
    • 425 Thanks
    tooldle
    I'm not clear how your brother registering the POA, prevents you from using it? I have POA for mum, which is held jointly and severally with mums solicitor. If i remember correctly, the solicitor registered it, but i am i the only one using it. Some companies write to us both, and others deal with just me. Are you muddling registration of the POA with lodging it with your mums bank for example.
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 1:51 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    I'm not clear how your brother registering the POA, prevents you from using it? I have POA for mum, which is held jointly and severally with mums solicitor. If i remember correctly, the solicitor registered it, but i am i the only one using it. Some companies write to us both, and others deal with just me. Are you muddling registration of the POA with lodging it with your mums bank for example.
    Originally posted by tooldle
    No I'm not " muddling " anything!

    My brother said he's registered poa in his sole name that's pretty clear. It's only lawful to do that with permission from other names attorneys so I've asked the opg for a copy of the register to see what's been done. They supervise attorneys and deputy's , if anyone is muddled I think it's my brother
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 11th Jun 17, 5:03 PM
    • 962 Posts
    • 1,581 Thanks
    troubleinparadise
    No I'm not " muddling " anything!

    My brother said he's registered poa in his sole name that's pretty clear. It's only lawful to do that with permission from other names attorneys so I've asked the opg for a copy of the register to see what's been done. They supervise attorneys and deputy's , if anyone is muddled I think it's my brother
    Originally posted by cheesedoffwithdebt
    I'm afraid I would suggest that your brother is not muddled, but is behaving in an underhand manner that lacks transparency. That rings alarm bells with me.

    There is an odd thing that those who live at a long distance and can be of no practical nor emotional help often attempt to control finances; this is not done from an altruistic motive but something less savoury. Though how they think those doing the caring can then pay for things is unclear; but it certainly is not done with the best interests of the donor at the centre of these actions.

    The OPG is the regulatory body for LPAs - but be cautious, if it is felt that you two attorneys cannot act together there is a risk that the LPA will be rescinded and a deputy could be elected instead.

    Is there really no way that either yourself or an acceptable third party could mediate with your brother to sort this out?
    • tooldle
    • By tooldle 11th Jun 17, 5:25 PM
    • 266 Posts
    • 425 Thanks
    tooldle
    Hi Op, you have asked the OPG to confirm the situation, and hopefully they will be quick to respond. Probablt best not to communicate with your brother about the LPA, until you have their response. How long ago did mum make the LPA?
    • cheesedoffwithdebt
    • By cheesedoffwithdebt 11th Jun 17, 6:49 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    cheesedoffwithdebt
    Hi Op, you have asked the OPG to confirm the situation, and hopefully they will be quick to respond. Probablt best not to communicate with your brother about the LPA, until you have their response. How long ago did mum make the LPA?
    Originally posted by tooldle
    Hi it's an EPA not LPa, yes I said I think the best thing to do is get details off the register and I've written to request that . Thanks
    now debt free and determined to maintain good spending habits and build savings
    • Ziggazee
    • By Ziggazee 12th Jun 17, 1:53 PM
    • 445 Posts
    • 570 Thanks
    Ziggazee
    I can't see how on earth your brother has registered an EPA appointing both of you......so obviously bearing both your names.....in his name only. Are you sure you're not confusing things here? It only needs one Attorney to register the document.....but it will be registered with both your names on.
    • Ziggazee
    • By Ziggazee 12th Jun 17, 1:57 PM
    • 445 Posts
    • 570 Thanks
    Ziggazee
    I've noted from your other posts on here that you've been in an IVA for some years. Maybe your brother thinks you're the one that can't be trusted with your mother's finances...
    • dipsy
    • By dipsy 12th Jun 17, 4:25 PM
    • 2,989 Posts
    • 9,671 Thanks
    dipsy
    I'm confused, I have just done a POA, I had to decide who was on it

    I actually registered mine myself, but I guess any of the named people could have, but as far as I know one might register, and choose to be the only one to get the registered copy/notification back, but all the people named would still be POA

    How could he remove your name?
    2007 £1749
    2008 £291.99
    2009 JanMasscara £7.00 Feb megcabot books x 2 £20 XFactor tkts x 2 £58.00 (couldn't go though as they only phoned on day :-( ) foundation £7.99
    total so far for 09 £92.99
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