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  • FIRST POST
    • chrisb1357
    • By chrisb1357 10th Jun 17, 8:17 AM
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    chrisb1357
    Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement Question
    • #1
    • 10th Jun 17, 8:17 AM
    Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement Question 10th Jun 17 at 8:17 AM
    Hi all,


    We have rented privately for many years but we are due to move soon to another private rented property and we have just been given a copy of the tenancy agreement to read but I have a question which am not sure about with regards to section under Terms which does not seem right to me compare to other agreements we have signed over the years.


    The Tenancy Agreement says "Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement"


    Under the section "Term" it states the following "The term of the tenancy is a periodic tenancy commencing on (date) and continuing on a year to year basis until the Landlord or the Tenant terminates the tenancy"


    In the pass with other landlords all my agreements have always been an initial 6 months and then they just continue on a month to month basis which means we only ever had to give a months notice to leave.


    With the wording above it reads to me that the landlord is doing an initial year upfront and then once the first year is over the wording to me reads that she is doing a year to year basis even that we will be paying the rent monthly. Should a periodic tenancy match how the rent is paid so in this case it should be month to month and not year to year.

    Also if its a year to year would this mean that we would have to give more than a months notice to leave. So just say 6 months into the 2nd year we wanted to leave would we have to wait until the 12 month or could we just give a month notice


    Many Thanks
Page 1
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 10th Jun 17, 9:45 AM
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    Pixie5740
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 17, 9:45 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 17, 9:45 AM
    There are two types of periodic tenancy, Contractual and Statutory. What you are describing above sounds like a Contractual Periodic Tenancy and the periods are whatever is set out in the tenancy agreement regardless of the rent frequency. The Contract cannot override your Statutory rights, for example the landlord couldn't have weekly periods and only give you two weeks notice with a Section 21 because your Statutory rights would give you eight weeks.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • chrisb1357
    • By chrisb1357 10th Jun 17, 10:10 AM
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    chrisb1357
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:10 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:10 AM
    SO as its a year to year as it states out if on the 2nd year we was like 6 months in and decided we wanted to give notice could it be a months notice or does it have to be when the 2nd year ends?
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 10th Jun 17, 10:14 AM
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    Pixie5740
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:14 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:14 AM
    What does the tenancy agreement say in regards to notice periods?
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 10th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
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    pmlindyloo
    • #5
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
    I have never seen a tenancy agreement like this.

    Does it say what notice you have to give to end the tenancy?

    If it were me I would telephone landlord/letting agency and confirm exactly what this means and the notice you have to give and the notice the landlord has to give.

    Make sure you follow up the conversation with an email/letter confirming what was said so you have evidence.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 10th Jun 17, 11:16 AM
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    theartfullodger
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:16 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:16 AM
    Ask landlord to change the terms:

    They can't force you to sign... you can force him to agree to your required changes... probably need to look elsewhere
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Jun 17, 2:42 PM
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    G_M
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 2:42 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 2:42 PM
    * It looks like an annual Contractual Periodic Tenancy. Rolls on year by year just as a monthly one rolls on month by month.

    * you cannot leave during the year - only at each year end. Unless there is a 'Break Clause'. Is there?

    * Notice to end the tenancy at year end is whatever the contract states. What does it say about notice?

    * rent should be paid in whatever frequency the contract states. What does it say?

    * does it quote an annual amount (perhaps payable in monthly installments) or a monthly amount?

    * If you don't like the contract (eg you want more flexibility to end earlier), then ask for
    i) a Break Clause or
    ii) a 6 month fixed term or
    iii) a contractual monthly periodic instead of annual

    (wording in read indicates uncertainty)
    Last edited by G_M; 10-06-2017 at 2:44 PM.
    • chrisb1357
    • By chrisb1357 10th Jun 17, 10:46 PM
    • 832 Posts
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    chrisb1357
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:46 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:46 PM
    Hi

    There is nothing in the agreement about notice period that I can see

    Rent will be paid monthly at £525 a month and a £500 bond secured on the RDP Scheme.

    It does not quote any annual amount

    I think she is after someone to rent long term which is why she has done the agreement like it is. But I intend to rent long term and would prefer a 6 month or 12 months then for it to just fall on a month to month. I can't be held down to a year on year as you just never know in life what may happen etc
    Last edited by chrisb1357; 10-06-2017 at 10:50 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Jun 17, 11:58 PM
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    G_M
    • #9
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:58 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:58 PM
    Hi

    Rent will be paid monthly at £525 a month c
    Originally posted by chrisb1357
    Please quote exact wording in full.

    It's a very poorly written contract. If it were really meant to be an annual periodic, as the wording in your 1st post suggests, then it should show the annual rent, as well as notice period (though there are other legal definitions for notice where unspecified.). So there is some doubt, though the intention of the 'Term' seems clear.

    Be that as it may, the contract clearly does not suit you so you will need to negotiate a different one.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 11th Jun 17, 11:43 AM
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    Pixie5740
    I think the landlord thinks she is being clever and is trying to lock you into 12 month periods but is not executing the idea very well or has considered how difficult it will be for her to serve notice correctly should her circumstances change and finds herself needing to sell the property.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • chrisb1357
    • By chrisb1357 11th Jun 17, 12:48 PM
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    chrisb1357
    Yes I think u are right but I think she just wants the security of someone renting long term but has not set out the terms clear and not stating the terms for us to give notice if we was ever going to leave.

    Could she still do a year on year contract but then have a term that says we can give a month's notice at any time if we was to ever want to move


    I think the landlord thinks she is being clever and is trying to lock you into 12 month periods but is not executing the idea very well or has considered how difficult it will be for her to serve notice correctly should her circumstances change and finds herself needing to sell the property.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Jun 17, 12:59 PM
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    G_M
    She could:

    1) give you an annual periodic tenancy and specify
    a) the annual rent and
    b) the notice period required (typically 2 months to align with the end of an annual period)
    c) and she could specify
    i) annual payment in advance
    ii) monthly payment of 1/12th of the annual rent to be paid monthly in advance
    iii) any other payment regime - but it should be clearly specified

    2) a 12 month fixed term (so security for both for a year)
    * she could add a Break Clause (eg at 6 months) which removes some security but ads flexibility). Or no Break Clause.
    * a monthly rent of £X payable in advance would be normal
    * at the end of the fixed term, you and she could agree another 12 month fixed term
    * at the end of the 12 months, the tenancy could become monthly periodic - and continue for ever

    3) there are other options but not guaranteeing each party an initial 12 month tenancy.

    Could she still do a year on year contract but then have a term that says we can give a month's notice at any time if we was to ever want to move
    Assuming you mean 'give a months notice at any time, then that would be a Break Clause (see above). But what's the point? That makes the year's contract pointless since you could leave early and she loses the security of 12 months rent which (seems to be) what she wants.
    Last edited by G_M; 12-06-2017 at 12:24 AM.
    • chrisb1357
    • By chrisb1357 11th Jun 17, 10:39 PM
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    chrisb1357
    Thanks for the info so far. Seems to be so many options and am not sure what to suggest to her as we are still very interested in the house and am sure she is keen to get someone in paying rent. Just don't want to put her off if I jump straight in with big terms that I would like


    Do you think asking for a 12month fixed term contract then rolling onto a monthly periodic is asking for to much??


    It states under the Rent Payment the following " Subject to provisions of this agreement, the rent for the property is £525 per month (the "rent")

    The Tenant will pay the rent in advance on or before the 1st of each month of the term to the landlord by standing order

    The Landlord may increase the rent of the property upon priving the tenant the greater of 90 days notice









    She could:

    1) give you an annual periodic tenancy and specify
    a) the annual rent and
    b) the notice period required (typically 2 months to align with the end of an annual period)
    C) she could specify
    i) annual payment in advance
    ii) monthly payment of 1/12th of the annual rent to be paid monthly in advance
    iii) any other payment regime - but it should be clearly specified

    2) a 12 month fixed term (so security for both for a year)
    * she could add a Break Clause (eg at 6 months) which removes some security but ads flexibility). Or no Break Clause.
    * a monthly rent of £X payable in advance would be normal
    * at the end of the fixed term, you and she could agree another 12 month fixed term
    * at the end of the 12 months, the tenancy could become monthly periodic - and continue for ever

    3) there are other options but not guaranteeing each party an initial 12 month tenancy.

    Assuming you mean 'give a months notice at any time, then that would be a Break Clause (see above). But what's the point? That makes the year's contract pointless since you could leave early and she loses the security of 12 months rent which (seems to be) what she wants.
    Originally posted by G_M
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Jun 17, 12:43 AM
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    G_M
    Good grief! She really has not a clue. Did she draft this contract herself, or get Micky Mouse to help her?
    Do you think asking for a 12month fixed term contract then rolling onto a monthly periodic is asking for to much??
    This seems fair.

    It states under the Rent Payment the following " Subject to provisions of this agreement, the rent for the property is £525 per month (the "rent")
    This suggests a monthly periodic, not annual.
    * "the rent payable for the property" should relate to the term - ie in an annual tenancy the rent payable for the property is the rent for a year..
    * when the rent is due, may be different eg 'rent payable for the property is £4800, payable in 12 monthly installments of £400 on the 1st of each month'

    The Tenant will pay the rent in advance on or before the 1st of each month of the term to the landlord by standing order
    Fair enough, though becomes messy if the tenancy itself does not start on 1st of the month.......

    The Landlord may increase the rent of the property upon priving the tenant the greater of 90 days notice
    Originally posted by chrisb1357


    1) if this is a periodic tenancy, then rent can only be altered at the start of a new period:

    So if it is an annual periodic, it cannot be increased till the end of each year.
    If it is a monthly periodic, then 90 days notice is fine, provided the new rent starts on the 1st day of a period (which may not be 1st of the month if the tenancy starts on a different date!)

    2) However the clause is useless since it does not specify by how much the rent can be raised. Any clause allowing a rent increase must be unambiguous both i) as to when (eg at the end of the first 6 months) and ii) by how much ie :

    · a cash amount (eg from £500 pm to £540 pm)
    · a percentage (eg 3%)
    · an amount linked to a recognised index (eg the CPI/RPI – Consumer/Retail Price Index)

    If the wording of the clause is vague, or makes it unclear/ambiguous as to when or how much the increase will be, the clause is invalid.

    * Rent increases: when & how can rent be increased?

    However, I would ignore this problem. Assuming you eventually take up this tenancy, and IF the landlord uses this clause to raise the rent, you can dispute it at that time.

    Given how amateur the LL seems to be, what else is going on?

    Since 1/10/15, new tenants must receive the 'Prescribed Information':
    * government leaflet "how to rent"
    * EPC

    * Gas Safety Certificate if there's gas
    * smoke detectors on each floor
    * CO alarm if there's solid fuel heating.

    * Since 1/2/16 landlords must
    check tenants' immigration status.

    As for deposits (if she takes one:

    * Deposits:
    payment, protection and return
    Last edited by G_M; 12-06-2017 at 12:47 AM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Jun 17, 12:55 AM
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    G_M
    Returning to your original Qs:
    With the wording above it reads to me that the landlord is doing an initial year upfront and then once the first year is over the wording to me reads that she is doing a year to year basis even that we will be paying the rent monthly. Should a periodic tenancy match how the rent is paid so in this case it should be month to month and not year to year.
    No, payment frequency does not have to match the tenancy periods.

    Also if its a year to year would this mean that we would have to give more than a months notice to leave. So just say 6 months into the 2nd year we wanted to leave would we have to wait until the 12 month or could we just give a month notice
    No, you cannot give notice to leave mid-period. So if the periods are year by year, you can only leave at the end of each year.
    Originally posted by chrisb1357
    If you want more flexibility to leave when you wish (more or less & subject to giving notice), either ask for

    * a monthly periodic tenancy (written in as the 'Term')
    * a 6 month fixed term (followed by either another 6 month fixed term or a monthly periodic)
    * an annual fixed term (with a 6 month Break Clause)
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