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  • FIRST POST
    • Newman1000
    • By Newman1000 9th Jun 17, 5:26 PM
    • 13Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Newman1000
    Advice Please - Verbal Warning
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 17, 5:26 PM
    Advice Please - Verbal Warning 9th Jun 17 at 5:26 PM
    Hi all


    I would be grateful for a bit of advice please. My wife has worked as a Elderly Care manager for a number of years ( 4 in the current role) and has always received glowing reviews from both management and residents . However recently a new Home Manager has been brought in along with a number of new staff from the manager’s previous employment.

    As can happen in these circumstances the whole working environment has changed which has resulted in my wife becoming quite stressed ( especially with staff phoning in sick at the last minute and my wife having to continue and work a further 12 hour shift , The Manager phoning on her days off with work questions etc etc) .

    She has been looking to leave but this was brought to a head when the Manager called her in earlier this week and presented her with a Verbal warning for apparently telling an elderly resident that they were “lazy” . This was reported by another member of staff ( one of the new group) . Apparently the Manager carried out an investigation and decided to issue a verbal warning along with a 6 month improvement plan .

    Firstly my wife disputes ever saying this and whilst I am sure I am biased I do believe her . Secondly there were no other staff in the vicinity and so the Home Manager has taken this other employee at their word . My wife has never ever received a warning of any nature before and has taken it quite badly. I personally think that this is a plan to manage her out considering the " crime" was so trivial

    She has 5 days to dispute the warning. However my advice to her is that she is wasting her time ( The home is owner operated and HR is not a big part of the environment) as all it will do is paint an even bigger target on her back . I have suggested she just resign ( we are lucky enough that she does not have to work if push came to shove ) and leave with dignity intact .

    Do people think it is worth disputing and taking further or just resign and move on ?
Page 1
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 10th Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    • 2,429 Posts
    • 1,392 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    I work in a similar field. I answer the phone if I have the time. I generally 'plan' things at the end of shifts so don't work much over and I suggest your wife do the same as no one should do 12 hours shifts back to back. If staff are calling in sick then they need to micro manage them out the door if it's a frequent thing, but don't let it be your problem. (Anyone thinking I'm harsh - ive done the same job as the wife for a number of years - if you don't start saying no you might as well move in).

    If it's a verbal warning I wouldn't worry as long as it's not gone on the file. I'm surprised they've given a warning, but the problem is probably the newbie.

    Only problem with resigning is her notice but if you can manage ok financially I would definately put the notice in and if they like the work either sign up to agencies or see what other similar works out there. I wouldn't let it worry her. Tell her it's how some of them are and let it fly over her head
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 8lb lost 69lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    Help others by &say hello to at least 1 person a day
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 10th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    • 2,237 Posts
    • 2,654 Thanks
    daytona0
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 17, 1:59 AM
    but the problem is probably the newbie.
    Originally posted by dawyldthing
    Really?!

    How do you figure? Because you've listened to a biased third party account of events and you believe that the internal disciplinary process of a company is wrong?

    Some employers are like you.... A "newbie" puts in a complaint and you look at it with skepticism! I hate places like that.

    Bottom line is that a complaint was made and the disciplinary process resulted in a verbal warning. Seems, to me, that the "newbie" had some sort of point (unless OP's wife is being managed out).

    Advice to OP and wife:

    1. A verbal warning is nothing. Just keep earning your coin and seek alternative employment in the meantime.

    2. Don't call old people "lazy" if you have done so.... (of course the OP and wife will passionately deny this, but people can be right sneaky gets sometimes!)

    3. Be un-contactable on her days off...
    Last edited by daytona0; 10-06-2017 at 2:16 AM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Jun 17, 8:46 AM
    • 3,325 Posts
    • 5,498 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 17, 8:46 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 17, 8:46 AM
    Hi all


    I would be grateful for a bit of advice please. My wife has worked as a Elderly Care manager for a number of years ( 4 in the current role) and has always received glowing reviews from both management and residents . However recently a new Home Manager has been brought in along with a number of new staff from the manager’s previous employment.

    As can happen in these circumstances the whole working environment has changed which has resulted in my wife becoming quite stressed ( especially with staff phoning in sick at the last minute and my wife having to continue and work a further 12 hour shift , The Manager phoning on her days off with work questions etc etc) .

    She has been looking to leave but this was brought to a head when the Manager called her in earlier this week and presented her with a Verbal warning for apparently telling an elderly resident that they were “lazy” . This was reported by another member of staff ( one of the new group) . Apparently the Manager carried out an investigation and decided to issue a verbal warning along with a 6 month improvement plan .

    Firstly my wife disputes ever saying this and whilst I am sure I am biased I do believe her . Secondly there were no other staff in the vicinity and so the Home Manager has taken this other employee at their word . My wife has never ever received a warning of any nature before and has taken it quite badly. I personally think that this is a plan to manage her out considering the " crime" was so trivial

    She has 5 days to dispute the warning. However my advice to her is that she is wasting her time ( The home is owner operated and HR is not a big part of the environment) as all it will do is paint an even bigger target on her back . I have suggested she just resign ( we are lucky enough that she does not have to work if push came to shove ) and leave with dignity intact .

    Do people think it is worth disputing and taking further or just resign and move on ?
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    I agree with daytona0. I'd add to their critique of the first response that I am struggling to see how you construct "i wouldn't worry unless it's gone on file" - this is a formal disciplinary prices with a six month improvement plan attached, so why would anyone think it hasn't gone on file? Disciplinary action goes on file- there's no point in having them if you don't do that!

    But being totally objective about the facts here, I'd start off by observing that verbal abuse of the elderly in care is not "trivial", and if that is what you truly think name calling people in your care is, then you shouldn't be looking after people! It is irrelevant to this whether she did it or not. It's simply not a trivial thing.

    As for the manager taking the other employee at their word - well you are expecting the manager to take her at hers, aren't you? Unfortunately this sort of thing happens a lot, and managers have to decide which version to believe. It is indicative of very little more than they have decided to make a judgement call - certainly, to construct this as a conspiracy to manage her out is something of a reach. If they were going to concoct a strategy for doing such a thing, wouldn't you exist that they'd do it a little better and concoct a better story?

    Lastly, the outcome makes me wonder whether you have the whole story. A verbal warning for this, yes, ok. It shouldn't have happened if it did; and it shouldn't happen again. So verbal warning would be about what I would expect. But a six month improvement plan? How do you improve upon "don't do it again"? An improvement plan suggests that there are performance issues...

    If it is her decision to resign, then that is up to her. But she needs to remember that any disciplinary action could be on a reference, and "resigned after being disciplined" might not be a great introduction to potential employers. However, if that doesn't bother her, then yes, if she wants to go then that would be the more realistic option. If she is that upset that she is going to resign over a verbal warning, then appealing doesn't seem worthwhile. She's just going to get more upset, and that seems pointless.

    Just an observation, but when stressed, people often do things that are out of character, and don't always even realize that they have done them. Things are rarely black and white. Yes, there are all sorts of things in this story that suggest poor employment practices or bad planning, but that doesn't mean that she didn't do what was suggested. Under stress, frustrated and tired, it's easy to let something slip out that you might not otherwise do. It doesn't make it right, but it is human, and we've all been there at some time or another.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 10th Jun 17, 9:10 AM
    • 6,096 Posts
    • 4,636 Thanks
    ohreally
    • #5
    • 10th Jun 17, 9:10 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Jun 17, 9:10 AM
    My wife has worked as a Elderly Care manager for a number of years

    However recently a new Home Manager has been brought in
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    I'm a little confused by this, are an Elderly Care manager and a Home Manager different roles?
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 10th Jun 17, 11:13 AM
    • 16,959 Posts
    • 37,395 Thanks
    Masomnia
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:13 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:13 AM
    Did they hold any kind of hearing or at least give her an opportunity to put her version of events before issuing the warning?

    Because if not I think those are grounds for challenging it.

    She should check their disciplinary policies to see if they have been followed.
    “I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 10th Jun 17, 3:34 PM
    • 2,429 Posts
    • 1,392 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:34 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:34 PM
    I probably worded it wrong, meant newbies as if a few come in at the same time it can change work dynamics
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 8lb lost 69lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    Help others by &say hello to at least 1 person a day
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 10th Jun 17, 3:35 PM
    • 2,429 Posts
    • 1,392 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:35 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:35 PM
    I agree with daytona0. I'd add to their critique of the first response that I am struggling to see how you construct "i wouldn't worry unless it's gone on file" - this is a formal disciplinary prices with a six month improvement plan attached, so why would anyone think it hasn't gone on file? Disciplinary action goes on file- there's no point in having them if you don't do that!

    But being totally objective about the facts here, I'd start off by observing that verbal abuse of the elderly in care is not "trivial", and if that is what you truly think name calling people in your care is, then you shouldn't be looking after people! It is irrelevant to this whether she did it or not. It's simply not a trivial thing.

    As for the manager taking the other employee at their word - well you are expecting the manager to take her at hers, aren't you? Unfortunately this sort of thing happens a lot, and managers have to decide which version to believe. It is indicative of very little more than they have decided to make a judgement call - certainly, to construct this as a conspiracy to manage her out is something of a reach. If they were going to concoct a strategy for doing such a thing, wouldn't you exist that they'd do it a little better and concoct a better story?

    Lastly, the outcome makes me wonder whether you have the whole story. A verbal warning for this, yes, ok. It shouldn't have happened if it did; and it shouldn't happen again. So verbal warning would be about what I would expect. But a six month improvement plan? How do you improve upon "don't do it again"? An improvement plan suggests that there are performance issues...

    If it is her decision to resign, then that is up to her. But she needs to remember that any disciplinary action could be on a reference, and "resigned after being disciplined" might not be a great introduction to potential employers. However, if that doesn't bother her, then yes, if she wants to go then that would be the more realistic option. If she is that upset that she is going to resign over a verbal warning, then appealing doesn't seem worthwhile. She's just going to get more upset, and that seems pointless.

    Just an observation, but when stressed, people often do things that are out of character, and don't always even realize that they have done them. Things are rarely black and white. Yes, there are all sorts of things in this story that suggest poor employment practices or bad planning, but that doesn't mean that she didn't do what was suggested. Under stress, frustrated and tired, it's easy to let something slip out that you might not otherwise do. It doesn't make it right, but it is human, and we've all been there at some time or another.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Even if there's an improvement plan it doesn't always go on file
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 8lb lost 69lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    Help others by &say hello to at least 1 person a day
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Jun 17, 5:22 PM
    • 3,325 Posts
    • 5,498 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #9
    • 10th Jun 17, 5:22 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jun 17, 5:22 PM
    Even if there's an improvement plan it doesn't always go on file
    Originally posted by dawyldthing
    Really? What kind of employers do you know? The only reason to not record an improvement plan is if you want to go straight to a tribunal without passing go.
    • Newman1000
    • By Newman1000 11th Jun 17, 10:58 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Newman1000
    Thank you all for your responses. After quite a bit of discussion we have agreed that she will resign . It seems that there clearly ( to our minds) is some agenda at work here and it is simply easier to just get out of it as soon as possible.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 11th Jun 17, 11:01 AM
    • 16,959 Posts
    • 37,395 Thanks
    Masomnia
    Thank you all for your responses. After quite a bit of discussion we have agreed that she will resign . It seems that there clearly ( to our minds) is some agenda at work here and it is simply easier to just get out of it as soon as possible.
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    If she's not happy and you're not reliant on the income then it may be the best option. In these circumstances things rarely get better in my experience.

    Good luck to her.
    “I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse
    • Newman1000
    • By Newman1000 11th Jun 17, 11:58 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Newman1000
    Thank you the most laughable aspect of this process was the warning letter was already typed up and ready . All that happened was my wife was called in at the end of the shift , the letter read out and she was asked to sign it to say she had recieved it . When my wife queried the charge she was told she had 5 days to dispute it . But the best part was that the manager had asked for a lift home earlier in the shift and despite handing my wife the letter still expected the lift home !!! Ah well she will soon be out of it
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 11th Jun 17, 12:45 PM
    • 6,096 Posts
    • 4,636 Thanks
    ohreally
    the manager had asked for a lift home earlier in the shift and despite handing my wife the letter still expected the lift home !!!
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    Please tell me your wife referred her to find someone who gives a ufck for the lift.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 11th Jun 17, 1:02 PM
    • 16,959 Posts
    • 37,395 Thanks
    Masomnia
    Thank you the most laughable aspect of this process was the warning letter was already typed up and ready . All that happened was my wife was called in at the end of the shift , the letter read out and she was asked to sign it to say she had recieved it . When my wife queried the charge she was told she had 5 days to dispute it . But the best part was that the manager had asked for a lift home earlier in the shift and despite handing my wife the letter still expected the lift home !!! Ah well she will soon be out of it
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    I think she should dispute the warning, especially if they do think they can start referring to it in reference. If she can get it off her record then that will be better for her.

    With no hearing, no putting an allegation to her, to give her a formal warning is completely wrong. A lot of people would claim it was a breach of trust and confidence.
    “I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse
    • Newman1000
    • By Newman1000 11th Jun 17, 1:23 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Newman1000
    Unfortunately my wife being the person she is did give her a lift . If it was me I certainly would have wished them well on their journey !!!

    If we dispute the warning can it be combined with the resignation? not to claim constructive or unfair dismissal but purely from a reference point of view?
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 11th Jun 17, 1:30 PM
    • 2,926 Posts
    • 2,721 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Unfortunately my wife being the person she is did give her a lift . If it was me I certainly would have wished them well on their journey !!!

    If we dispute the warning can it be combined with the resignation? not to claim constructive or unfair dismissal but purely from a reference point of view?
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    Unless she reaches a formal settlement agreement they can say anything they like in a reference (as long as it is true and not deliberately misleading) or simply refuse to provide one at all.

    There is no point in disputing the warning if she is intending to resign anyway. She cannot challenge any sanction short of dismissal at an employment tribunal and based on what you have written here I see no grounds to claim constructive dismissal (which in any case is incredibly difficult to win).
    • anamenottaken
    • By anamenottaken 11th Jun 17, 4:56 PM
    • 3,935 Posts
    • 3,404 Thanks
    anamenottaken
    I'm a little confused by this, are an Elderly Care manager and a Home Manager different roles?
    Originally posted by ohreally

    I would expect the Home Manager to be the most senior executive management person as far as the CQC is concerned whereas an Elderly Care manager is someone further down in the hierarchy.
    • anamenottaken
    • By anamenottaken 11th Jun 17, 4:59 PM
    • 3,935 Posts
    • 3,404 Thanks
    anamenottaken
    Unfortunately my wife being the person she is did give her a lift . If it was me I certainly would have wished them well on their journey !!!

    If we dispute the warning can it be combined with the resignation? not to claim constructive or unfair dismissal but purely from a reference point of view?
    Originally posted by Newman1000
    I see a fair number of references provided for care home staff and the ones provided by an employing organisation are generally of the type giving dates and job titles and a disclaimer about not taking the lack of further information as indicating anything regarding their performance but that it is the agreed standard format.

    Some will go further than that but most seem to want to avoid getting into challenges.
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